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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
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Eau Claire, WI
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W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
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Lockhart (EE)
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02-18-15 12:47AM
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southerncurler
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With one win in the last two Lank seals out the remainder of the field from the top 4. McCormick and Roth need to root hard for Bert tomorrow to win. Lank has the juniors in her final game.

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02-18-15 09:24AM
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If Bert wins out and Lank loses out then Bert guarantees making tiebreakers. If McCormick and Roth also win out there'd be a 4-way tie for fourth.

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02-18-15 02:21PM
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Tuck-perhaps you put the "Kiss of Death" on Erika, but this women's event is suddenly ahelluvalotmore interesting!

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02-18-15 02:54PM
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So with just one draw left, we know the teams that will be in the playoffs, the rest is just about seeding...

Brown, Christensen, Sormumen, and Lank will be the final 4...no one has clinched a spot in the 1-2 game yet, nor have any of them been condemned to the 3-4 game...although the loser of the Christensen-Lank game will be one of the 3-4 teams...the winner is not necessarily guaranteed to be in the 1-2 game.

Without running the numbers precisely (and if shotrockcurling is up to date and accurate), I believe that with Roth being out of the running, if Sormunen can place 3rd or better, they're the US World's rep..their lead over the remaining 3 is enough. If Sormunen comes in 4th, whomever wins the National Championship will be the Worlds rep (if my reading is correct, the difference in points earned between 1st and 2nd would be enough to bridge the 5 point gap between Lank in 6th and Christensen in 3rd.)

Adult funded teams have gone 11-5. Add in the funded Juniors and it moves to 18-6. 1 Senior HPP team will be in the final 4, as will the Juniors HPP team.

Unlike the Junior Men's, the Junior Women's team has shined in this tournament. This almost certainly must be the way the USCA hoped it would go with giving the Junior Champs an entry. I do kinda feel for the Christensen rink if they manage to win the whole thing...it would be Junior Nats, Senior Nats, Junior Worlds and Senior Worlds in a 3 month span...there's no way they're getting 4.0's in school this semester...

Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 02-18-15 at 03:05PM

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02-18-15 03:09PM
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VAcurler
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Two questions in regards to the Christensen team pulling this off:
1. Has a team ever gone to both events?
2. What kind of funding does the USCA (HPP?) provide for going to both Worlds? Its not like they can just put this expense on their credit cards.

Rhetorically, is rooting for a funded junior team the same as rooting for a HPP team?

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02-18-15 03:16PM
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World's (both Juniors and Open) travel expenses are paid by USCA (Well, USOC actually...it's part of the core HPP funding).

Their parents are on their own if they want to try to travel to both (are any of the players under 18? If so...travel gets entertaining without at least one parent...there may be a contingency in place for that, I don't know).

A quick review of the US Junior and Open Champions lists on Wikipedia shows no occurrances where the same rink won both...so not from the US at least...it's entirely possible it has happened from some European or Asian nation, however.

(yep, good call...removed Senior Moments)

Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 02-18-15 at 04:06PM

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02-18-15 04:03PM
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It's not Senior Nationals. I know what you mean but the true "Senior Nationals" are for those over 50. Can get confusing.

Let's call it just plain Nationals. Same with Senior Worlds. Just Worlds.

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02-18-15 05:19PM
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Time for me to apply the "Kiss of Death".

I'm calling Patti to win it all.

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02-18-15 10:49PM
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If the points are correct on shotrock, Sormunen gets into the 1-2 game on DSC and will be the World rep. Not sure if that is correct but based on what info is available that is what I see. Top three all 1-1 against each other so DSC is the tiebreaker.

Verified by Terry on Twitter, Sormunen is your World rep.

Last edited by jhcurl on 02-18-15 at 11:07PM

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02-19-15 08:12AM
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So...for all intents and purposes....our World Rep won't be decided on the ice in the playoffs...it was decided by button draws that weren't even on the webcasts. Because that's the difference between 2nd (and a guaranteed 3rd place at worst) and 3rd (no guarantees at all).

Yes, you need tiebreakers that don't involve full games, I get that, and for placing, that's what you gotta do, understandable...but...too much weight on DSC results...

System Fail. Only a minor one, *IF* Sormunen ends up winning the whole damned thing...but still...system fail.

I get the goals of the system, you want to force curlers to compete in more than just the qualifiers and nats. great... but you've effectively made what *should* be the highest tension curling this nation can produce irrelevant.

I would propose a relatively minor tweak:

The United States World's Representative will be chosen from the following criteria:

1. The winner of the USCA National Championship, provided that team is ranked in the top 4 United States teams in the OOM for the current season, including any points resulting from the National Championship.

2. If the winner of the USCA National Championship does not qualify under criteria #1, then a team ranked in the top 4 US teams in the OOM (including any points resulting from the National Championship) will represent the US, determined as follows (and in this order):

a. If the Runner Up in the USCA National Championship is in the top 4 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.

b. If the 3rd place team in the USCA National Championship is in the top 3 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.

c. If the 4th place team in the USCA National Championship is in the top 2 US Teams on the OOM, they will be the representative.

3. If none of the criteria above are met, then the USCA National Championship winning team will be the representative.

By doing this, you restore meaning to Nationals, and you restore REAL meaning to the playoffs in the Nationals. You decide it on the ice, and you've prevented the "Casual team that got lucky" from overriding a year's worth of results in almost every case.

This is the closest equivalent possible in curling to the way Track and Field does it...our National Champion makes the team, if they've got a qualifying score...if not, we take the best available that does have one.

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02-19-15 09:18AM
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I find the whole team selection system takes the air out of our national championship. It may also deny qualifiers much needed competitive training. Quite frankly, if our HPP coaching and support system are so effective--and we are effectively supporting 3 teams in the field--it should be rare that one of these teams can't get the job done at nationals. It should be part of the ongoing assessment of the program effectiveness, and keeps some pressure to be better on both teams and coaches. Not to mention some experience in playing tense, meaningful competition. You will have to finish higher than third in the worlds to get a gold medal. No gold stars for showing up in the playoffs.

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02-19-15 10:30AM
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Most sports send their national champions to compete at worlds. USA curlers do not have to wait for that -- playoffs have not yet started and we already know who our world rep is! Now that makes for a really exciting finish to this week's event. Not sure why I would want to watch a meaningless chmapionship game, even less interested in buying a ticket to do so.

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02-19-15 10:45AM
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Perhaps that explains the lack of success in recent years (as in MANY recent years). Let the teams make their own lineups-that way you get players who live "in the same time zone" and who can practise and play TOGETHER regularly.

The last time an American rink won a world championship it was Debbie in 2003-they may not have been from the same club, but they were all located in the Central Time Zone.

I may have posted this elsewhere, but there are lots of ex-pat Americans or Americans working in the Toronto area...and I'll bet a Loonie that at least 3 of them are women who are pretty good curlers...and there's a built-in coach, if you know what I mean.

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02-19-15 11:58AM
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I not quite sure the system is correct when you are saying a 5-Time National Champion (Patti Lank) and a 7-Time National Champion/3 Time Olympian (Erika Brown) are not good enough to be your representative by winning your National Championship.
Its time for these players to walk away from all USCA Championships in protest that this needs to change.

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02-19-15 01:05PM
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Last year saw the emergence of a new team in women’s US curling (Team Spatola). They were hot as a pistol at the end of Nationals. But we sent the second place team. That second place team then retired from curling at the end of the season. And to make matters worse, the USCA (HPP coaches) in their wisdom Split up the National Championship team. They kept two players on the A team (but moved the third to second and moved the second to the B team. And the Lead was rewarded for winning a National Championship by being excluded from the HPP program.)

Explain to me again why we changed the National Championship? Because we weren’t getting the best teams representing the USA at worlds?

Debbie McCormick won Nationals 5 times without the OOM scoring. Patti Lank won Nationals 5 times without the OOM scoring. Erica Brown won Nationals 2 times without the OOM scoring. Alison Pottinger won nationals 1 times as skip and 10 times overall without OOM scoring. The USA women have finished 6th place or better 16 times in the last 20 years. (Don’t hold me to the accuracy of all the stats! But I’m close.)

Oh! Other honorable mention past National Champions in the last 20 years… Cassie (Johnson) Potter, Kari Erickson, Amy Wright, and Lisa Schoeneberg. (Those must have been fluke years…)

We almost always sent the best we had. The best just wasn’t always good enough.

If the HPP wants for fund teams, fine. But let them win the National Championship fair and square, on the ice in February. What’s so hard about that? Ugh….I’m so frustrated with how things are being handled now and I’m so disappointed in how the USCA as a group has abandoned the culture and the spirit of USA curling.

Please don’t misinterpret my post. I think the women associated with the HPP are tremendous curlers and wonderful people.

BTW, how have USA teams done since all this started in 2011? NO medals.

What was the USCAs involvement in the Spatola Team that won the National Championship last year? NOTHING

I’m sorry, but all the BS being provided by the HPP is unnecessary. Yeah Patti, Cory, or Erica, you might win Nationals, but you’re not going to Worlds. How F’d up is that?

Honestly, If I were Spatola/Roth, I’d be pissed as hell. She had a team with real Chemistry (No disrespect to Tabitha or Jamie!) last year, and the USCA just ripped apart what they had accomplished at Nationals last year. And now she’s sitting on the outside looking in at the playoffs!

When is anyone at the USCA going to be held accountable for the kinds of decisions that they continue to make that are not in the interest of USA curling?

I HONESTLY hope Sormunen wins Nationals, because if they don’t win, I don’t know how they go into a World Championship event knowing that the actual National Champion is sitting at home watching them.

We don’t have a National Championship anymore. We just have a playground to train the HPP teams. But it’s at the expense of a lot of the other teams time and money.

And before someone replies with, “They have the same opportunities as the HPP teams to earn points during the season.”…. Please don’t! They don’t have the money, they don’t have the access to resources, etc. The playing field is NOT equal! But fine! I can live with that. Just don’t give them an unfair advantage at Nationals! If your program is so great, let it stand on its own merit. Beat the other teams (that have their own program for success) fair and square on the ice in February.

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02-19-15 01:19PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling
I HONESTLY hope Sormunen wins Nationals, because if they don’t win, I don’t know how they go into a World Championship event knowing that the actual National Champion is sitting at home watching them.


I'm with you on this.

quote:
Originally posted by fanofcurling
And before someone replies with, “They have the same opportunities as the HPP teams to earn points during the season.”…. Please don’t! They don’t have the money, they don’t have the access to resources, etc. The playing field is NOT equal! But fine! I can live with that. Just don’t give them an unfair advantage at Nationals! If your program is so great, let it stand on its own merit. Beat the other teams (that have their own program for success) fair and square on the ice in February.


Plus the HPP teams get to earn points at invitation-only events. Not everyone had a shot at the "Curling Night in America" event or (for the men) the "Red Square Classic."

Ironically, the men's juniors send their national champions to the worlds, despite the fact that the favored and most consistent team had one uncharacteristically bad game in the finals.

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02-19-15 02:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by My three sons
I not quite sure the system is correct when you are saying a 5-Time National Champion (Patti Lank) and a 7-Time National Champion/3 Time Olympian (Erika Brown) are not good enough to be your representative by winning your National Championship.
Its time for these players to walk away from all USCA Championships in protest that this needs to change.



I don't think that anybody is downplaying the accomplishments of Erika or Patti or Debbie for that matter. It's just that once they get to the world championship things go off the rails. As I mentioned above, perhaps the problem lies in the method with which you "make up" your teams instead of letting them form in the old-fashioned way.

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02-19-15 02:57PM
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Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...

All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...

It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.

Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow

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02-19-15 03:25PM
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VAcurler
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...

All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...

It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.

Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow



No. You are wrong and being uncivil/mean.

It isn't about how the athletes look, its about how they perform. And at the Worlds they aren't performing at the level the USOC demands. Since there isn't a test to predict the success of drawing to four foot for the win in an extra end in front on 16,000 spectators and national television, they are using what they can measure, one component that is measurable happens to be fitness.

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02-19-15 03:28PM
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I hate to break it to you, but at every single worlds, 75% of the teams won't win a medal.

50% of them will finish in the lower half of the field.

The USA isn't God Given a Right To Medal. There's gonna be years when it doesn't happen.

Just because it doesn't doesn't mean that you need to scrap a system and change it...but the USOC made the USCA do so.

And it's not exactly "mean" to point out that Shuster (as was within his rights, and I agree with him) didn't change his entire style (life and play) when he won Nationals and/or the Olympic trials.

He's proven over and over that he is the best we have...yet the USOC seems to try and change the system to keep him out.

It's not rude to call a spade a spade.

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02-19-15 03:47PM
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The more urgent concern right now is retaining our Olympic spot by regularly finishing high enough in Worlds. If we can do that, then we can think about how we are going to medal. Losing our Olympic spot will have a devastating impact on recruitment, which of course harms long-term development of high-level curlers.

I don't think we've yet discovered a proven model for developing more competitive teams. The HPP program may be "it" but I have my doubts, mainly because it's still working with more or less the same talent pool.

I'd like to see the U.S. take a more organized and pro-active approach at developing new talent here at home. To find that talent, we are going to need more curlers in the U.S. (We can't just keep raiding Canadian ex-pats.) We are moving in the right direction in numbers and curling facilities--we need to get instruction and coaching out there; and provide good playing conditions.

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02-19-15 03:47PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...

All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...

It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.

Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow



I'd check the title of the forum thread you're arguing in before laughing heartily. Because unless he's scheduled for some pretty drastic surgery in Sweden, there's no way Shuster's making it to Worlds under "this ruleset."

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02-19-15 04:00PM
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so chris plys said on his twitter that sormunen punched her tickets to worlds? is that true, no other team can pass her?

been a very long time since she's gone to compete on the international scene thats for sure. 2007 isnt it?

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02-19-15 09:10PM
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(duplicate item deleted)

Last edited by chapnlie on 02-19-15 at 09:13PM

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02-19-15 09:12PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Let's be honest and call a spade a spade...

All of this "HPP" and "We gotta get better ATHLETES in there", and "We need to make sure curlers are better prepared!" is because Shuster was our Olympic Rep for the last 2 times around, didn't do so well at either Olympics, and he doesn't exactly fit the "Slim, trim, fit, fighting, and COMPLIANT" model that the USCA wants...

It's not about "ensuring we remain Olympic Eligible". It's not about "Improving the depth of talent at the Elite level", it's about making sure that the guys and gals wearing Red, White, and Blue in Korea in 2018 will fit the USOC stereotype as much as possible.

Personally, I intend to laugh heartily when Shuster manages to make it under this ruleset anyhow



Alan, I think you nailed it!
Well, almost. While I think the HPP is largely in response to the U.S. mens' futility at the Olympic since Fenson's Olympic silver, I think there is also some measure of protecting the U.S. participation, so the USCA caved and decided to try the approach successfully used by the Europeans. Unfortunately, once again the powers that be failed to adequately consider the MANY drawbacks of the new approach ... well detailed by fanofcurling.

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