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05-07-16 04:16PM
dugless_zone 13 is offline Click Here to See the Profile for dugless_zone 13 Click here to Send dugless_zone 13 a Private Message Find more posts by dugless_zone 13 Add dugless_zone 13 to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
dugless_zone 13
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this is why they have two sets of rules in the book, one for general play and one for officiated play.

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05-08-16 12:05PM
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Itsjustagame
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Common sense and judgement rather than clear indisputable rules leads to situations like the USA-Jap men's game with the infamous shuster's decision rock. I think everyone would agree that these types of situations are not good for the sport, and a difficult to judge call will lead to this, like they argue ball's strikes in baseball, pass interference in football, etc.

Its not that an official is unwilling to make the difficult to judge call, it would just be better for all if a better method is developed.

You ever call a a hog line violation in a big club match. It is an awkward moment in a competitive game and at times leads to a contentious moment that we would all like to avoid.



Curlky: Thanks for finding an example that shows why curling would be better off if referees were to use their judgement, common sense and call it the way they see it. I never expected that from you!

The infamous Shuster rock decision came to us BECAUSE it was John who made the call. Many forum posters say that for sure the american rock was going to roll out. Others are convinced that it was going to stay in the rings and others are still wandering.

Was Shuster convinced the rock was going to stay or did he use the rule to his advantage? I have no reason to think he intended to cheat or was biased but it has given ammunitions to all those who think he did. Maybe he was right, maybe he was wrong.In any case, it does not make any difference.

On the other hand if the referee would have been the one making the call, nobody would have doubted his/her honesty in dealing with this situation. We would have all forgotten about this issue by now. This is true even if the referee would have made the wrong call. Referees make wrong calls every night different sport facilities every day but the show goes on.

I see curling officials doing week long events, voluntarily and a lot of times by taking time off from work that they will never get back. They take clinics to be better referees and to know the rules better than most players, even the very competitive ones. They are at the venue early in the morning and officiate very long days while freezing on the ice. Despite all of that, they still do it. I can only explain that they do because they care deeply about the game and to make sure that it is played fairly. It is ok to disagree but I cannot comprehend why you want officials to stay away from the game and not be a part of the solution to the rock steering / carving problem.

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05-08-16 01:14PM
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jamcan
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Justagame; there is a very simple reason why posters like curlky don't want a technique rule and officials making calls.

Because they want to continue directional sweeping.

If posters and some of the players were truly honest they would stand up and admit it. And, as someone who is still playing competitively, I've heard many comments to this effect over the past season.

Why? Because it gives them another edge over the rest of us. If you stand at the far end and watch some of these top players release their stones you might wonder how they make any shots at all. But if you can correct that throwers error by plowing or cornering and turn a miss into a make then you might win a game instead of losing.

Guys at the top had no problems with snowplowing until a few other teams started doing it successfully and they started losing to those teams. Then Gushue hits on the one sweeper variation and all hell breaks loose.

Remember, no one really gave a damn until the late spring of 2015. Then, as different teams begin using the same techniques and winning suddenly there's an issue. Who were the first to complain? Not club players. Not good competitive players. No, it was a small group made up of Slam players who were finding themselves on the losing side of the scoreboard to teams now sweeping the same as they were.

True, the technique is easily learned. But in the meantime the issue is clouded by others insisting it's the brooms. Sensible people noted right from the start (the infamously bad Blackhead video) that materials aside, there was an awful lot of old school snowplowing going on.

The truth, known to many, is that this has always been a combination of technique first and then technology. Both need to be studied before any decisions are made. Yet that didn't happen, did it? Instead the fingerpointing began and ends with the equipment. Which is likely only 20% of the real issue.

With an Olympic race starting up, some of those teams with points don't want to give up their edge and have to sweep like the rest of us and rely more on throwing skill. Take away directional sweeping and you might just see a bunch of teams come back to the pack. And that's the last thing they want.

So expect to see continued sound bites from certain teams, players and some officials attempting to convince you everything will be fine if we just keep banning materials.

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05-09-16 08:53AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Oh please curlky. Spare us all the wounded poster routine. You have asked the same questions on multiple threads and ignore any reasonable response. You're question regarding how officials would relay information shows a blissful ignorance of the communication system already well in place.



Hmm...communication system already well in place? Funny, I've worked "on the headset" at multiple Continental Cups and several events on the USCA Play downs and Nationals level, and not once have I heard a single discussion from a TV replay booth to an official on the ice...nor, for that matter, any indication of anyone on the airwaves who *could* do such a role, and sure as hell not in time to stop a rock in flight.

The only folks on the officiating headset frequency at a TV event are:
- Head Umpire (on ice, roaming between sheets)
- Game Official (one per sheet being played, only paying attention to that game)
- Timing Supervisor (up wherever the timers are for the particular event, hardly watching sweeping at all, as he's watching clocks and ensuring timers are doing their jobs correctly/handling issues)
- Stats (busy enough as he/she is tracking stats)

So there's no one on the wire watching for sweeping violations in the first place. Sure, you could maybe add one in, but it would need to be one per game...so now you've got four more people on the radio net...not insurmountable, but you'd need to ensure radio protocol handles it. Oh, and you'd also have to recruit and train volunteers to *do* that task...it's already hard to get enough volunteer officials for any event not in Las Vegas...

Also, you obviously fail to realize the radio protocol, which will also fail to stop things in time...This is a typical Officiating Radio Call:

"Timing Supervisor to Sheet Bravo"
"This is Sheet Bravo, go ahead Timing"
"Be advised that team yellow clock ran five seconds long on their last stone due to a missed button, recommend refunding the time as per rule at the next between end break, please concur and advise Skips and Team yellow coach that we will be adding 5 seconds to Yellow clock at the end break, over"
"Concur, I will advise of the adjustment, thank you"
"Thank you, out"

It takes time to do that...for timing it's not a huge thing since adjustments are only made in the between end breaks (assuming we're not under a minute on the clock...things get...interesting then). The odds of communicating a sweeping violation in time for the game official to stop a stone before contact are within rounding error of zero.

quote:

So what if the infraction is not stopped before a stone comes in contact with others? We replace stones now, we simply do it again. That's why we have guys like Alan Macneil sitting at each end with their magnetic boards.




Lovely personal attack dig, dude...also wrong 100%...in USA officiated curling, we don't have a guy sitting there with a magnetic board (for that matter, we haven't had one at either Continental Cup I've worked either). And as for the offhand dig at me and my "alleged" officiating from this and previous threads...stay classy dude...

And none of this has yet to establish a clear rule that can actually *be* enforced...so...dealing with the mechanics of enforcing it is putting the cart so far before the horse it ain't even on the same road.

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05-09-16 09:33AM
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dugless_zone 13
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If a sweeping infraction is called during the shot no one's clock is running.

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05-09-16 09:37AM
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AlanMacNeill
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So?

Are you saying you're expecting the timing Supervisor to watch for sweeping violations on your "overhead camera" (which you still haven't established who's paying for or operating that...)?

You do know there's multiple games going on at once, right?

*IF* you're going to have a sweeping technique rule, it needs to be one that the Game Official (not the game observer, that person *isn't* an official...they're basically scoreboard operators and two additional eyes if something *really* weird goes on the game official didn't see) can observe and call from their normal in-game position (near the end board at the House end for the given end of the game).

They're the only person with the slightest prayer...and any rule I've seen sofar would be hard as heck to rule on reliably from that position.

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05-09-16 10:27AM
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dugless_zone 13
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As has been proposed before, the players feet can not be in path of the rock while they are sweeping. Easy to see from either end of the sheet at ice level or above. That and the sweeping motion must be completely across the running surface of the rock.

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05-09-16 12:26PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
It is ok to disagree but I cannot comprehend why you want officials to stay away from the game and not be a part of the solution to the rock steering / carving problem.


If I felt that there was a rule about technique that could easily be enforced by players and or officials, I would get 100% behind it, but as of yet, I have not seen a proposal that I feel could be enforced and I have not come up with one myself. I also prefer the golf model, where there are equipment rules, and rules about technique are easy for a player to know if they have violated it or not. Golf officials are there to interpret rules to help the player. Golf officials are not like NBA or NFL officials where they are watching the game and actively calling violations as the play unfolds real time. I would like curling officials to maintain this style of passive involvement like golf has.

Since I am being called out directly by name, I despise corner sweeping, directional sweeping, snow plowing, and only having one sweeper sweep at a time. I think they are all things that make a joke out of the game. Though I fully admit that the technique does work, I refuse to be a part of a team that uses them, and understand the consequences as such. I believe that sweeping should only help a rock go further and straighter, and that is it. Any rock action caused by sweeping that is not one of those 2 things is in my opinion unnatural to the game and should be removed. So if I see a rule that can be enforceable, I will 100% get behind it.

Things I am 100% for in terms of technique that are super easy to enforce include but are not limited to:
-No switching of broom heads during a game
-No switching of brooms between players during a game
-Only 1 sweeper per side of the rock
-Just as your delivery order is determined at the start of a game, I believe that the sweeping positions should be fixed as well. So I sweep on the left side for any rock thrown by the vice on the team as an example

Things that I am 100% in favor of AS SOON AS an acceptable rule is made
-Eliminate standing behind a rock (an exception should be made when necessary to maneuver ones footwork around rocks in play)
-Eliminate sweeping that does not cross the running band of the rock completely
-Eliminate Snow Plow, and angled sweeping

Now to go further into my personal thinking, I do fear that the WCF could get lazy and only enforce equipment or technique. Given the choice, I think equipment is the #1 thing, and then technique. And this is despite the fact that I acknowledge that there is a chance that technique has perhaps more effect that equipment (again perhaps, not stated as a fact).

So what do I do if I am the czar of the WCF and got to make all of the rules by myself.

1.) Implement some rules about equipment based upon testing. I could go into this more if people want my ideas, but the short versions are: Must be a soft foam pad between fabric and plastic. Material must have a minimum roughtness or grit based upon testing, material cannot be directional, material must be woven and not the sealed waterproof, and set a minimum size of a pad.

2.) Implement the rules that I said are super easy to enforce above.

3.) Pay for a few top teams from varying sponsors (to eliminate sponsor bias) to come and play an event with rules based upon those 2 things. Encourage the players to manipulate the rocks as much as possible with technique, set up lots of cameras. Convene a panel to watch those video replays and see if the end result is OK or not.

4.) If the first three things did not satisfy me enough, I would possibly go a step further and convene another panel to test angled sweeping. This would be multi part. Give players a limit, and see if they are able to not break the limit, knowing that if angle helps, then the players will try to be as close to the angle limit as safely possible. Evaluate the results from overhead camera testing. Then the other part is to see if officials could accurately call angle from on the ice in various positons and distances from the sweepers. Then have officials see if they could call angle from overhead cameras to determine how many cameras would be needed. If officials could not maintain a super high accuracy (personally I would say that at most 1 error per 2 games or 128 stones would be my standard) then the rule would need to be modified before it could be accepted. But the hope would be that steps 1 and 2 are enough that this step would not ever need to be addressed.

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05-09-16 01:15PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Hmm...communication system already well in place? Funny, I've worked "on the headset" at multiple Continental Cups and several events on the USCA Play downs and Nationals level, and not once have I heard a single discussion from a TV replay booth to an official on the ice...nor, for that matter, any indication of anyone on the airwaves who *could* do such a role, and sure as hell not in time to stop a rock in flight.

The only folks on the officiating headset frequency at a TV event are:
- Head Umpire (on ice, roaming between sheets)
- Game Official (one per sheet being played, only paying attention to that game)
- Timing Supervisor (up wherever the timers are for the particular event, hardly watching sweeping at all, as he's watching clocks and ensuring timers are doing their jobs correctly/handling issues)
- Stats (busy enough as he/she is tracking stats)

So there's no one on the wire watching for sweeping violations in the first place. Sure, you could maybe add one in, but it would need to be one per game...so now you've got four more people on the radio net...not insurmountable, but you'd need to ensure radio protocol handles it. Oh, and you'd also have to recruit and train volunteers to *do* that task...it's already hard to get enough volunteer officials for any event not in Las Vegas...

Also, you obviously fail to realize the radio protocol, which will also fail to stop things in time...This is a typical Officiating Radio Call:

"Timing Supervisor to Sheet Bravo"
"This is Sheet Bravo, go ahead Timing"
"Be advised that team yellow clock ran five seconds long on their last stone due to a missed button, recommend refunding the time as per rule at the next between end break, please concur and advise Skips and Team yellow coach that we will be adding 5 seconds to Yellow clock at the end break, over"
"Concur, I will advise of the adjustment, thank you"
"Thank you, out"

It takes time to do that...for timing it's not a huge thing since adjustments are only made in the between end breaks (assuming we're not under a minute on the clock...things get...interesting then). The odds of communicating a sweeping violation in time for the game official to stop a stone before contact are within rounding error of zero.



Lovely personal attack dig, dude...also wrong 100%...in USA officiated curling, we don't have a guy sitting there with a magnetic board (for that matter, we haven't had one at either Continental Cup I've worked either). And as for the offhand dig at me and my "alleged" officiating from this and previous threads...stay classy dude...

And none of this has yet to establish a clear rule that can actually *be* enforced...so...dealing with the mechanics of enforcing it is putting the cart so far before the horse it ain't even on the same road.



Why does the stone have to be stopped mid shot? It doesn't. The stones can be replaced, if necessary, after the infraction is called. Not a big whoop.

There is also the option to allow the non-offending team to decide what happens. As we do now with burnt stones. However, I can see teams letting each other off the hook with that in order to allow each other to snowplow. The best way is to have the umpires pull a stone and send a clear message to both teams.

As for classy, when you actually post your own suggestion for a technique rule-instead of just ripping those put up, then you won't get jibed. Can't have it both ways.

Btw, I do understand radio protocol- use them everyday at work. The problems you mention are easily addressed and overcome.

__________________
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05-09-16 01:22PM
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dugless_zone 13
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Not calling you out on anything here curlky as we seem to be getting somewhere but your golf analogy and officials not interfering but interpreting to help players could possibly be the worst example. I have seen numerous PGA events where a player is disqualified many hours later, after their round is over, because a non-official watching the broadcast calls the tournament to claim a player committed a foul that they saw on television, something no one noticed at the time it may have occurred. The officials then look at this and disqualify the player for not calling this infraction on themselves, even though the player may not have seen the infraction or know about it even occurring.

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05-09-16 01:46PM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Why does the stone have to be stopped mid shot? It doesn't. The stones can be replaced, if necessary, after the infraction is called. Not a big whoop.

There is also the option to allow the non-offending team to decide what happens. As we do now with burnt stones. However, I can see teams letting each other off the hook with that in order to allow each other to snowplow. The best way is to have the umpires pull a stone and send a clear message to both teams.



I point you at the thread regarding "Shuster's Decision" for a quite clear explanation of why allowing the non-offending team to fix the problem based on what would have happened ain't viable anymore.

Similarly, the rock needs to be stopped before impact as often as possible to eliminate inconsistencies in replacement...when we measure stones to the millimeter, it's not really a good idea to allow them to be displaced and replaced any more than absolutely necessary...so if a fouled rock can be stopped, it's a damned good idea to do so.

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05-09-16 02:18PM
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dugless_zone 13
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A touched runnjng rock is only stopped if the violation occurs between the hoglines. A sweeping violation might result in rocks needing to be replaced until violations were called a few times in competition. After that players will most likely conform to the rules in order to keep from being penalized. At the club level or unofficiated play it wouldn't be the oppositions worry.

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05-09-16 02:41PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Not calling you out on anything here curlky as we seem to be getting somewhere but your golf analogy and officials not interfering but interpreting to help players could possibly be the worst example. I have seen numerous PGA events where a player is disqualified many hours later, after their round is over, because a non-official watching the broadcast calls the tournament to claim a player committed a foul that they saw on television, something no one noticed at the time it may have occurred. The officials then look at this and disqualify the player for not calling this infraction on themselves, even though the player may not have seen the infraction or know about it even occurring.


I view curling officials purpose to address things like:
The kid threw popcorn onto the ice, what do we do?
The rock bounced off the sheet divider and hit a rock, what do we do here?
The hog line monitor handle is malfunctioning, what do we do now?
A sweeper fell down and moved 6 rocks in the house can you help us fix the messed up house?
My skip had an emergency run to the potty, how do we play this end or two while he is in the bathroom?

I don’t think curling officials should get involved in the game unless asked to do so. I don’t think a curling official should be an active monitor who is “throwing the flag” to call a penalty. This is consistent with golf officials, and your examples actually show that. Notice that you used the phrase “many hours later”. I don’t watch every minute of every round of professional golf, but I cant think of a situation where a player hits a ball, and while it is in the air the official comes over to DQ the player while the moment is still occurring. The golf officials walks with the players not to enforce rules on the spot, but to interpret rules and questions on the spot, and that is a very important yet subtle difference between a golf official and an NFL official. The proposal that certain people on here want with officials in real time calling a foul on a brush stroke would turn curling officials from their current golf like status to more of an NFL like status, and I don’t support that.

Do you think that it is in the best interest of curling to turn curling officials into NFL style officials prepared to actively "throw the flag" at any violation that they see?

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05-09-16 04:13PM
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dugless_zone 13
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Officials already have that ability according to the rulebook.

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05-09-16 05:13PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Officials already have that ability according to the rulebook.


According to the rulebooks of both golf and curling, officials do have that ability. My belief is that the amount of active officiating and making calls should be minimal.

I dont mean to make this personal, but this frustrates me. I write a super long rule proposal with my beliefs, and now we are debating about a a very small golf analogy, and I would like to stop its discussion and get back on topic.

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05-09-16 05:32PM
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dugless_zone 13
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I am talking about curling. The rules for officiated play state that an umpire can on their own come out and make a rules violation call should they see an infraction. At the club level you rely on honesty of players to call their own infractions ( since that is they only way they can be called) but at the elite levels of curling, where players will stretch the limits of the rules and even break them to get an advantage or even win, active officials are becoming more important. Elite level curlers adapt quickly ( as seen this season by the quick shift to the one sweeper technique) and tougher sweeping rules will be easy for them to adjust to, so violations will be called less and less as we adapt.

an example of this was when Canada adopted the old World hogline rule changing from our cvurrent version to the world version where the rock had to be "clearly released before it completely crossed the hogline". We tried that for a year and players adapted to it but when it was decided that the rule was to tough to police both the World and Canada went back to the old rule where the rock had to be released before the hogline. Players reverted back to that with no problems.

It would not be the big disaster some people seem to think it will be.

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05-09-16 09:53PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
an example of this was when Canada adopted the old World hogline rule changing from our cvurrent version to the world version where the rock had to be "clearly released before it completely crossed the hogline". We tried that for a year and players adapted to it but when it was decided that the rule was to tough to police both the World and Canada went back to the old rule where the rock had to be released before the hogline. Players reverted back to that with no problems.

It would not be the big disaster some people seem to think it will be.



So you are telling me that it was difficult to tell if a rock was "clearly released before it completely crossed the hogline" but you feel comfortable that officials would be able to actively monitor a sweeping angle without difficulty?

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05-10-16 12:00AM
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jamcan
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Let's see, you have maybe a millisecond at the hogline vs anywhere from 10 -26 seconds on a sweeper's call.

Yeah, I'd say you have way more time to call a sweeping violation than a hogline one.

Give it a rest curlky. No matter how you try to make it seem an umpire isn't capable of calling a broom angle you're wrong everytime. Especially this stretch.

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05-10-16 05:20AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Let's see, you have maybe a millisecond at the hogline vs anywhere from 10 -26 seconds on a sweeper's call.

Yeah, I'd say you have way more time to call a sweeping violation than a hogline one.

Give it a rest curlky. No matter how you try to make it seem an umpire isn't capable of calling a broom angle you're wrong everytime. Especially this stretch.

really? who cares? for 100 yrs sweeping kept the rock straght and took it further, now all of a sudden this has changed? in some of these championships it made some players look pretty bad, you are throwing it that bad that you have to brush it to make it curl? pretty bad!! curling has gotten to the point it isn't curling anymore, if you can't make shots on mark's ice, you don't belong and that has been that way since the slams started, what you see now is way to much curling on t.v. with bad announcers and 80 yr olds not even knowing wat they are watching, maybe try this , mix up the rocks and the ice conditions and see if these young pups can play on wat we used to play on, the skip used to have to be a mastermind, not anymore, no strategy and the same teams over and over again in speils that nobody understands wat they are for is a recipe for disaster, but i guess kevin finally got his wish!!!lol.

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05-10-16 10:53AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Let's see, you have maybe a millisecond at the hogline vs anywhere from 10 -26 seconds on a sweeper's call.

Yeah, I'd say you have way more time to call a sweeping violation than a hogline one.

Give it a rest curlky. No matter how you try to make it seem an umpire isn't capable of calling a broom angle you're wrong everytime. Especially this stretch.



With the hog line, you have 1 call to make based upon millisecond judgement with an official who is in perfect position, who does not have to move their body head or eyes, and can expect to make a call in a very particular spot. With the sweeping, you have 5 to 10 calls to make each second for 10 to 26 seconds, each one coming at a random position based upon where on the ice you are. And if you have only one official, now you are asking to make potentially 10-20 calls per second for 10 to 26 seconds, in two separate locations.

I've grown amazingly tired of your condescending superiority complex that you have. You have absolutely zero desire to actually have a conversation to solve a problem. You want your way, and are unwilling to listen to anything else. and if someone provides a point that is hard to dispute, you just turn to name calling and degrading others. I even stated above that I agree with you that I want someone to write a COMPLETE solution that supports limits on angle and technique and yet you still want to be, well you. I guess not everyone can be a problem solver.

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05-10-16 11:29AM
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dugless_zone 13
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At most elite competitions you have one person per sheet assigned to track the rock positions so having that official watch from that end to see if the person is sweeping while standing behind the rock and also to see if the broom completely crosses the running surface of the rock would be pretty simple. Our events already have these people in place.

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05-10-16 01:00PM
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Itsjustagame
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Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Common sense and judgement rather than clear indisputable rules leads to situations like the USA-Jap men's game with the infamous shuster's decision rock. I think everyone would agree that these types of situations are not good for the sport, and a difficult to judge call will lead to this, like they argue ball's strikes in baseball, pass interference in football,



Curlky. This was your post 4 days ago. Now yesterday you posted this:

''I view curling officials purpose to address things like :
The kid threw popcorn onto the ice, what do we do?
The rock bounced off the sheet divider and hit a rock, what do we do here?''

So, let me get this straight. The officials were not to interfere with the infamous Shuster decision rock but they are when a rock comes off the divider and hits another rock in play? What's the difference!

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05-11-16 06:56PM
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ott-am
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I know most of this thread has been about technique, but one thing I believe everybody can agree on wrt to the fabric, is that if you make marks on the ice while sweeping, to the point that the opposing team cannot follow the path that was just played, then that fabric, whether it be hair or some kind of pad, should be banned.

I believe this was occurring this season, so that would be the easy step one.

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05-11-16 07:06PM
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dugless_zone 13
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
I know most of this thread has been about technique, but one thing I believe everybody can agree on wrt to the fabric, is that if you make marks on the ice while sweeping, to the point that the opposing team cannot follow the path that was just played, then that fabric, whether it be hair or some kind of pad, should be banned.

I believe this was occurring this season, so that would be the easy step one.



Which curling heads were those?

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05-11-16 07:15PM
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ott-am
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13


Which curling heads were those?



I don't know, but if you watched the mens worlds, that was happening quite often.

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