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05-01-16 04:24PM
jamcan is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jamcan Click here to Send jamcan a Private Message Find more posts by jamcan Add jamcan to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jamcan
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Location: vernon bc
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Hardline Comes Out Swinging...

http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...eeping.html?m=1

Have a look at this folks. A well written and researched blog post from Hardline. They've obviously had just about enough of Broomgate and the small group of so-called elites who'd rather blame technology so they can continue to use directional sweeping to correct poor deliveries and releases.

Think the WCF will do the right thing? Not a chance.

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05-01-16 05:15PM
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dugless_zone 13
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The sweeping summit needs to be very transparent and happen early enough for all manufactures to have time to adjust to any changes. Sweeping rules should be the main focus.

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05-01-16 05:30PM
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decade
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Whoever the blogger is that wrote that sure doesn't understand the KISS principle.

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05-01-16 05:32PM
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prairie guy
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Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Whoever the blogger is that wrote that sure doesn't understand the KISS principle.



Seemed pretty simple to understand to me.

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05-01-16 08:28PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Whoever the blogger is that wrote that sure doesn't understand the KISS principle.


What's more simple than a manufacturer stating they believe it's technique which is the real issue?

Seriously, how easy it would be for Hardline to go along with the others and say it's the brooms. Think of all the replacement sales they would get by simply adjusting their products every time another fabric was considered 'too aggressive' by a little clique of 'elites' when they start losing to teams outside their group.

These guys are taking the high road. How nice it would be to see others do the same.

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05-02-16 12:17PM
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Three
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Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 278

I was GoldLine stuff but that Hardline post was awesome. 100% agree. Great to see the records before and after teams switched to Hardline.

The biggest problem with WCF is that ANY sponsorship to them from ANY manufacturer of curling equipment is going to be seen as a problem. They need to drop Goldline and BalancePlus as official sponsors ASAP and if they don't understand why they are clueless.

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05-02-16 01:12PM
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Guest
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Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by decade
Whoever the blogger is that wrote that sure doesn't understand the KISS principle.


Rock and roll all night and party every day.

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05-02-16 04:21PM
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curlky
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Archie's amazingly long and rambling post is the reason why manufacturers should not be involved in the actual testing. Archie’s win loss record study does NOT prove anything. Let me give you an extreme example that shows why. Let’s say that I am not good at curling, and that my record against Brad Gushue when he used a BP brush was 1W and 49L. Let’s then says that after Gushue switched to a HL brush, my record was 2W and 23L. Does this change in record tell you that the HL brush is actually less effective than the BP, since my winning percentage was 2% against Gushue and the BP, but was 8% when Gushue used the HL? Of course it doesn’t. The fact is that Gushue is either A.) Better than me (which he is) or B.) We are equally talented (which we are not) but head to head his style of game is one that I don’t play well against (i.e. he has my number).

The ONLY way that W-L matters would be if Gushue played his own team, and when his team played Red Stones they used BP and when they played Yellow stones they used HL. And even then you need to account for statistically advantages of who has hammer in the first.

Notice that Archie gives no stats other than W-L. It’s because HL has not done any of their own testing. Instead HL sticks to mudslinging and name calling. You can counter that by saying, well Player X said something bad about HL so they are entitled. Sure, maybe they are, but it doesn’t make that a mature response. And Archie could have given all of the W-L data, and written in such a way to allow you to jump to the conclusion that some teams are a bunch of crybabies. Rather he choose to directly call certain players out. Again, his right, but still doesn’t make that a mature response.

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05-02-16 04:32PM
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Guest
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Archie's amazingly long and rambling post is the reason why manufacturers should not be involved in the actual testing. Archie’s win loss record study does NOT prove anything.


Essentially, correlation does not imply causation.

Back to the pissing contest.

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05-02-16 05:05PM
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rbi
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> Archie's win loss record study does NOT prove anything.

Archie was responding to inferences made by Niklas Edin and others. So it's not on HL to prove anything, it's on Edin (or the governing bodies that banned the brushes due in part to statements made by Edin, Ulsrud, Glenn Howard, Brad Jacobs and others) to prove that there is a problem. Archie is just offering simple evidence that refutes Edin's inference.

He also offered multiple reasonable remedies to the situation, some of which would cost HL considerable money. I hope that WCF pursues one or more of these so that we can get back to curling.

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05-02-16 09:56PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by rbi
Archie is just offering simple evidence that refutes Edin's inference.

He also offered multiple reasonable remedies to the situation, some of which would cost HL considerable money.



Exactly what true scientific evidence to Archie provide. He provided records. There is no factual evidence in that that his brooms did or did not do anything, just observations. Also, please explain how anything Archie suggested would cost HL any dollars? I dont see that at all.

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05-03-16 03:17AM
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On The Nose
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I agree with most of what Hardline wrote in that blog post.
I particularly agree with their blaming the players - the players who complained all year about the sweeping are the same players who employed the sweeping techniques and brush pads that they were complaining about! This is ridiculous, and is obvious hypocrisy - and it's good that the Hardline post points that out. All season, it's as if the players were begging for someone to make rules to stop them, because they were unable to stop themselves; because they lacked the discipline - or integrity - to stop themselves from using the abrasive pads and questionable sweeping techniques.

As I said, I do agree with most of what Hardline wrote in that blog post. However, Hardline has sort of put themselves in a 'catch 22' situation whereby their marketing has always claimed that their icePad is significantly more efficient than all the other curling brush pads... yet they are also now saying that teams which use the Hardline icePad gain no equipment advantage over teams which use other brush pads - and they even provide Win/Loss statistics to show that their icePad provides no advantage to winning games.

One is tempted to ask Hardline: "Well... which is it? If your icePad is significantly more efficient than other brush pads, why don't teams using the icePad win significantly more games than teams which do not use the icePad? And if teams using the icePad are not winning more than teams not using the icePad, how can you claim that the icePad is significantly more efficient than other brush pads?"

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05-03-16 03:21AM
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On The Nose
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For those who haven't seen it (because it's in another thread which does not have an obvious title), you may find some interest in this informal study, which addresses to what degree different pads scratch the ice (including photos):

http://www.curlbc.ca/duncans-curlin...ce-to-the-test/

Click the link at the bottom of that page for the 'full report'.

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05-03-16 09:52AM
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minh nguyen
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: ottawa
Posts: 5

Me venting

Sorry for my bad English, I am French and trying to write English!

I am NO expert in curling as I have only played for 2 years.
I just finish my 2nd curling season.

I ADMIT that I am the BIGGEST CHEATER in the game not because I am using the HARDLINE, because of my sweeping technique. I have master the dumping/snowplow technique this year.

My record in 1.5 years.
- 3rd place The Gordie Perry 2015-2016
- 1st place Richmond Cash Spiel 2015-2016
- 4rd place USA Utica Challenge 2014-2015
- 1st place Ottawa Club Mixed League 2014-2015
- 5th place Men City Of Ottawa Challenge 2015-2016
- 1st place Quebec Charlevoix Challenge 2015-2016
- 6rd place USA Utica Challenge 2015-2016
- 1st place Ottawa SST Annual 2015-2016
- 1st Pink Broom Spiel 2015-2016
And many more that I might have forgot...

Some big spiel and some Small Spiel, I am no PRO but that is my record in 1 year and half of curling. I should have been playing in the Novice (under 5 yrs) but I am not.

The Hardline didn't make me win all those spiel. The DUMPING/SNOW Plowering/Corner Sweeping did!

GIVE ME any material, that is waterproof and repelled dirt, frost, hair, water (water is created by storing frost between the material groove and melting it with friction and then dumping on the corner of a rock).. I will manipulate the rock like they is no tomorrow....

Hair Broom - doesn't just scratch the ice... hair broom store dirt and frost like an old dirty kitchen broom and just dump in front of the rock when I need it to make it bend or slow it down. I dare any Curling Association member to lick my old dirty hair broom if they don't believe that its dirt.

Anyone that believe that micro scratch back-off rock are FOOL and Brain Wash by Sportnet/TSN and any curling association or scientist with 100$ microscope and with no curling experience.

Strip me out of all my WINNING this year, I don't care. I just want stop hearing all the CURLING bull**** and Crying. This sport is all about the money and it running by a group of bullies (almost like the mafia).

In the last year, TV and Sponsor has given a lot of money in PRIZE. Who doesn't like 50 000 - 100 000$ in winning after 1 week of PLAYING CURLING. I would do anything for money even if I have cheat (corner sweeping).

Why don't we ask all the PRO to sweep across the rock next tournament? I am confident that they will ALL ALL ALL refuse.

ACTUALLY!!! Millions dollar question to all the PRO!!!!
Which one would you pick during the Olympic Try-out next year!!!

Option 1: Pick any Goldline or Balance Plus brush and you are ALLOW to corner sweep..

Option 2: Pick Hardline Illegal fabric and Plastic insert BUT you can only sweep across the rock at all time..

Is it the Fabric or the Corner Sweeping that make you win a game???????

This is the battle of who is going bankrupt next year. If Hardline win this battle, BYE BYE Goldline and Balance Plus.

If Hardline lose, More money to CCA and Curling Event as Goldline and Balance Plus will continue to sponsor and finance the sport.

Hardline Why don't you give 10 Millions in CCA and I am sure this dispute will go away. Money Talk

AnyWay, I might be all wrong in this as I am just a 2 years curling. Happy Tuesday everyone and I guess that I am just woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

I could write a lot more but I am tired of being negative. I will probably receipt a lot of hate mail after this and lose all my team sponsors.

Sorry Doug Flower to put you on the spot light. but I am here for the good of the sport and not money.

Good luck to all the retailers

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05-03-16 11:09AM
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rbi
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: May 2014
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> lick my old dirty hair broom

yes, yes. please let them post video of this.

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05-03-16 12:20PM
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minh nguyen
Knee-Slider

 

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: ottawa
Posts: 5

FYI,

I am all for curling association putting rules and restrictions. But put right restriction.

During the Sweeping Summit, test fabric but also test sweeping technique.

Does the fabric affect the rock if it is sweep across the face of the rock OR Does the Fabric affect the rock when it is corner sweeping only?

If they really want to test fabric, only sweep across the face of the rock for accurate testing.

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05-03-16 02:49PM
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 900

This summit is absolutely needed!

When a team has one brush to steer the rock and one brush to slow it down if too heavy, those fabrics definitely need to be prohibited in tournament play.

Sweeping should not be used to slow a rock. The only way that happens is by fabric.

The opinions in the summit are from everyone. If you have a problem, send them a message. All opinions will be considered.

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05-05-16 04:46PM
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RockDoc
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Re: Hardline Comes Out Swinging...

quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...eeping.html?m=1

Have a look at this folks. A well written and researched blog post from Hardline. They've obviously had just about enough of Broomgate and the small group of so-called elites who'd rather blame technology so they can continue to use directional sweeping to correct poor deliveries and releases.

Think the WCF will do the right thing? Not a chance.



Pro and amateur athletes alike are masters at rationalizing their performance (or lack of same). But ultimately, team win-loss records (real or imagined) are a red herring.

A team win-loss record against other teams has no meaningful or objective information content regarding the directional sweeping performance of brushes and brush materials. The only way to evaluate that is to measure it directly, and to understand the theory (physics) behind it.

We already have plenty of empirical evidence of the impact of both technique and materials from observations of practice and game play this season. We even have a really good idea of he physical mechanisms in play, and why some materials are more efficient that others. Some controlled off-season testing will reveal more direct data, and should provide critical information that will direct additional rule-making. At this point there can be little doubt that materials, construction, and technique are all significant contributing factors to the observed effects. Those who have studied the problem and those who are charged with making the rules have converged on the approach of dealing with materials and construction first, and if that is not sufficient, then technique as well. The former will be easier to enforce objectively than the latter. I'm reasonably confident that we will be better off at the start of next year than we were this year; last year was a situation where the sport was chasing an ever-moving and changing target as we learned more and more about the practice and science of brushing throughout the season.

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05-05-16 09:32PM
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dugless_zone 13
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I think you look at sweeping technique first. Eliminate the north-south corner sweeping that is the most effective way of directional sweeping and you may not have to change anything about the brooms. This is more cost effective for all, curlers and manufacturers. We didn't have these problems when corner sweeping was banned.

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05-06-16 12:07PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Okay, great...so...I have a mission for you, dugless..

Write the rule.

It needs to be clear and not have any grey areas, it needs to be enforceable, and needs to be able to be determined if it's infracting or not by an official who may be as far as 75 feet away when the infraction occurs, and at the end of the sheet (ie not perpendicular to the running path of the stone.

Good luck with that.

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05-06-16 12:45PM
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Curlingnut
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Alberta
Posts: 19

Whats sad about all of this is that quite a few posts are concerned about how to officiate the problem be it be broom heads or technique, our sport used to be based on sportsmanship and very seldom did we even think that someone was cheating now its in the forefront of most every discussion. Truly a sad time for our sport!

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05-06-16 12:50PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Welcome to being a Professional/Olympic Sport.

When nothing was on the line other than a trophy and some fame, how you won was at least as important as if you won, and 2nd place wasn't too much of a problem, you still did well, mate.

Now, there are Olympic Medals at stake, or Ranking points leading to tournaments with significant chunks of change on the line. For many nations, if their top team doesn't qualify for the Olympics, it is a DISASTER, as the OC will cut funding and down the drain goes the program, and thereby the sport.

Regretfully, that changes the game, at the top level at least. It's not that folks will *want* to cheat, necessarily, but that they are going to push the line as far as it can go, and a neutral arbitrator is going to have to enforce just where that line is.

Sad? Yep. The nature of the beast? Also...yep...

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05-06-16 01:01PM
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Okay, great...so...I have a mission for you, dugless..

Write the rule.

It needs to be clear and not have any grey areas, it needs to be enforceable, and needs to be able to be determined if it's infracting or not by an official who may be as far as 75 feet away when the infraction occurs, and at the end of the sheet (ie not perpendicular to the running path of the stone.

Good luck with that.



And what is your alternative Alan?

Having no rules that no official can enforce? Are you saying officials are too stupid to walk down the sheet or to use their? To continue having this circus going on?

Let's all have sand paper under are brooms. Let snow plow, corner sweep and lets all joystick the rocks and we can all get a good laugh at this comedy. While we are at it, let's have electric brooms and rocks with remote controls.

But hey, the officials won't destroy the game by doing what every officials in every other sport is doing which is using their judgement, calling it as they see it, and yes, making an occasional wrong call.

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05-06-16 01:08PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Nope, not saying that at all (I'd better not be, seeing as how I *AM* one).

What I am saying is that if you want a rule, it needs to be one that is clear and officials can have confidence in their ability to call.

As for "walking down the sheet"...where do you propose we do that? Not all facilities have beautiful carpeted walkways between all sheets, and if you want us to walk up and down the ice, you're asking us to potentially interfere with the action on either the game we are working or another sheet inadvertently. Not to mention potential slip and fall issues.

Currently, officials are stationed at the House end so that they can see where the critical actions happen in the majority of cases. so, you either need the rule to be one that can be detected from 75 feet away or more (if the sweeping infringement is right after the release) or you need to change the layouts of the sheets to allow travel lanes for the officials.

My recommendation, personally, would be to write the rule so that it can be detected from a distance at an oblique angle. Regretfully, that means that a rule judging things like "The sweeper cannot enter the airspace above the stone" or "The sweeper must remain in front of the stone" are infeasible, as that's impossible to reliably detect from the distance and angle an official is currently gonna be at.

So...given that...and the fact that a rule of some sort is needed...write the rule...that's all I'm asking.

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05-06-16 01:31PM
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Itsjustagame
Hitting Paint

 

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 106

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Nope, not saying that at all (I'd better not be, seeing as how I *AM* one).

What I am saying is that if you want a rule, it needs to be one that is clear and officials can have confidence in their ability to call.

......

So...given that...and the fact that a rule of some sort is needed...write the rule...that's all I'm asking.



You have challenged Dugless to write a rule. You are an official. I am issuing the same challenge to you. That's all I'm asking.

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Curling Scores

M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 6 -- Mon, Mar 18 -- 7:00pm AT
Gagn/Mori Final
Rees/Ches (EE)
Sand/Crai Final
Gamb/Kalt (8)
Arms/Grif Final
Pete/Gall (7) Watch Live Curling!
Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
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Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 12:00pm CET
Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
Cihl/Mace Final
Yang/Tian 10  (6)
: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 4 -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 10:00am MT
Delorey Final
Koe (5)
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Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Marlee Powers and Luke Saunders of Halifax, Nova Scotia won 6-5 over Papley/van Amsterdam in the opening draw streamed on Curling Canada's Plus platform.

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