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04-20-16 02:10PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
Does it count to the disqualified Switzerland after being beaten by Poland 10x4?
What about to the likely disqualified Sweden?
You may not judge all countries based on Qatar.
Is it all about the fear to lose to other countries?
Oh, there a lot more teams that should be in a developmental league, Serbia, Israel, Belgium, etc.
Why were Switzerland and Sweden disqualified? Or were they just eliminated from the playoffs? Switzerland lost to the two playoff qualifiers and another 3-3 team. Looks like the same happened to Sweden. It looks like there has been no upsets of top four teams in the standings by the bottom two in each division. I don't think there is any fear for the playoff teams to lose to the countries that need more time.
Four pools of 7 would cut the games by 1/3 and cut the wait time and time needed to participate considerably while still allowing marginal teams to get experience.
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Last edited by biterbar on 04-20-16 at 02:21PM
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04-20-16 03:39PM |
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monticello
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12 |
quote: Originally posted by biterbar
Oh, there a lot more teams that should be in a developmental league, Serbia, Israel, Belgium, etc.
Why were Switzerland and Sweden disqualified? Or were they just eliminated from the playoffs? Switzerland lost to the two playoff qualifiers and another 3-3 team. Looks like the same happened to Sweden. It looks like there has been no upsets of top four teams in the standings by the bottom two in each division. I don't think there is any fear for the playoff teams to lose to the countries that need more time.
Four pools of 7 would cut the games by 1/3 and cut the wait time and time needed to participate considerably while still allowing marginal teams to get experience.
I'm glad you don't work for WCF
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04-20-16 03:45PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by biterbar
Oh, there a lot more teams that should be in a developmental league, Serbia, Israel, Belgium, etc.
----
Four pools of 7 would cut the games by 1/3 and cut the wait time and time needed to participate considerably while still allowing marginal teams to get experience.
There are two parts to your comment I really like.
First, a competitive and/or developmental mixed doubles "world" league would be an excellent way to get teams the competition they need to improve.
A system similar to world rugby sevens might actually work really well for the mixed doubles format, maybe even a multi-tiered event where teams can move up from the lower event to the higher one. But this sort of development will cost money... and how much does the WCF want to put into it? Rugby seven's can pull in huge crowds to finance their events...I don't think there was more than a few dozen people in the stands so far at the mixed doubles event.
The other option is to start a world curling tour event(s), the same as traditional 4 person curling. But the same issue of money to operate said events pops up...
Two... I think you need a World 'A' and 'B' championship (and maybe 'C' as well). You can move up or down depending on your finish, but right now the Worlds are a bit of a farce... and I don't see how it actually develops curling in emerging curling nations.
I would like to see the quality of curling improve in mixed doubles for all participating nations and the current system really doesn't allow for it.
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04-20-16 03:56PM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
Name me another team sport that has a 42-team final tournament for a world title?
EDIT: Thought of one - NCAA basketball - but that's a one-game knockout, rather than a round robin.
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04-20-16 04:01PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by nelsosi
Name me another team sport that has a 42-team final tournament for a world title?
EDIT: Thought of one - NCAA basketball - but that's a one-game knockout, rather than a round robin.
And considering there are 351 NCAA Div 1 basketball schools... only about 1/6 make it to the big show.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
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04-20-16 04:16PM |
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BDure
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Vienna, VA
Posts: 98 |
I like the idea of a tiered world championship. It works in many other sports -- even the Davis Cup in tennis.
And it really is more inclusive in the long run. We want more countries to be involved, and breaking into the traditional World Championship is difficult for any emerging country.
I think soccer's World Cup qualification process is a little too cumbersome to copy. European national teams are almost always playing qualifiers for either the Cup or Euros, and it's a bit much. Simply moving from Tier B to Tier A based on performance over the past 1-2 world championships seems much more efficient to me.
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04-20-16 04:26PM |
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monticello
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12 |
quote: Originally posted by nelsosi
Name me another team sport that has a 42-team final tournament for a world title?
Soccer has 32 and they are thinking to increase (since it's good for the development of the lowest countries).
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04-20-16 04:27PM |
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Three
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 278 |
quote: Originally posted by nelsosi
Name me another team sport that has a 42-team final tournament for a world title?
Problem is the WCF also has "open entries one per member" for the World Championships for Senior Men's and Ladies and for Regular four person mixed curling as well. Everybody can compete! I see the Croatian Curling Association didn't send anybody to mixed doubles this year. Perhaps me and my Little Rocker (age 9) can enter next year! (I kid people, I kid).
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04-20-16 04:37PM |
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HotRocks
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 960 |
Canada Qualified
Some teams that have Qualified to date..
A- HUN , SVK, POL(TB), BUL(TB) .... B-FIN,AUS....C-NOR,ENG,TUR
D - CAN,CHN ....E- USA
Canada now at 5-0.. and watching the stream ..they are really doing well.. great hitting skills
Go Canada
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04-20-16 04:37PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
How many curlers or curling clubs do these countries have?
I find it tough to give 84 athletes a birth when we have 48 qualify for each of the Men's and Women's world championships while leaving out very capable teams (China in the men's, Norway in the women's)because they don't qualify do to a lack of regional spots.
Once Monticello and his Brazilians becomes a powerhouse in team curling The US and Canada will need to fight it out for that world birth!
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04-20-16 04:44PM |
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PeelOfShame
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 31 |
quote: Originally posted by BDure
I think soccer's World Cup qualification process is a little too cumbersome to copy. European national teams are almost always playing qualifiers for either the Cup or Euros, and it's a bit much. Simply moving from Tier B to Tier A based on performance over the past 1-2 world championships seems much more efficient to me.
The WCF actually has a tiered approach in place for the Juniors now, as well as for Wheelchair Curling. So it's not so far-fetched that they might apply it elsewhere in the coming years.
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04-20-16 05:32PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
Soccer has 32 and they are thinking to increase (since it's good for the development of the lowest countries).
Again though, there are 209 members in FIFA, so only 15% of teams qualify for the World Cup (NCAA Div 1 basketball finals about 18% qualify).
You don't have to be that restricted to make it a true world championship (maybe allow 12 teams in the 'A' event, 12 in the 'B', etc.), but right now the world championships is a sign up event. You have two curlers? Come on out!
I don't want to downplay the importance of teams like Brazil, Qatar and so on, because without them, the sport will stagnate. These teams help the sport grow outside of the traditional markets, and that is important.
But wouldn't you be better served by playing in a competition against teams with similar "ranking" with the chance to compete for something meaningful (i.e., moving up or down), rather than just being happy to be there, and maybe picking off the odd team in your pool? And when you earn your spot in the 'A' event... it actually means something more than a participation badge. You earned the right to be there.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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04-20-16 06:37PM |
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monticello
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12 |
quote: Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
Again though, there are 209 members in FIFA, so only 15% of teams qualify for the World Cup (NCAA Div 1 basketball finals about 18% qualify).
You don't have to be that restricted to make it a true world championship (maybe allow 12 teams in the 'A' event, 12 in the 'B', etc.), but right now the world championships is a sign up event. You have two curlers? Come on out!
I don't want to downplay the importance of teams like Brazil, Qatar and so on, because without them, the sport will stagnate. These teams help the sport grow outside of the traditional markets, and that is important.
But wouldn't you be better served by playing in a competition against teams with similar "ranking" with the chance to compete for something meaningful (i.e., moving up or down), rather than just being happy to be there, and maybe picking off the odd team in your pool? And when you earn your spot in the 'A' event... it actually means something more than a participation badge. You earned the right to be there.
It is a good point, but I can answer from my own experience: No. Playing a "C Event" would be incredible hard to get any funding to go.. Simple like it.
We only get better playing better teams...
I don't know why you guys complain about your "waste of time" beating weak team.. The World Championship is still a 1 week event as any other World Curling Championship.
Also: The world championship is the qualification event to choose the ones to the olympic games.. if you don't give equal oportunities to all countries to qualify to the olympics, it would not be fair..
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04-20-16 07:38PM |
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PeelOfShame
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 31 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
It is a good point, but I can answer from my own experience: No. Playing a "C Event" would be incredible hard to get any funding to go.. Simple like it.
We only get better playing better teams...
I don't know why you guys complain about your "waste of time" beating weak team.. The World Championship is still a 1 week event as any other World Curling Championship.
Also: The world championship is the qualification event to choose the ones to the olympic games.. if you don't give equal oportunities to all countries to qualify to the olympics, it would not be fair..
One of the things to consider - beyond 42 teams (or so), it starts to get unmanageable to hold the event. I think we're in a special case for these last two years with Mixed Doubles, since we are in the run-up to the Olympics, that they're not going to change the rules now... but I'd imagine that starting with 2019, they'll have different rules as they look towards qualifying for 2022. Whether that's regional qualifiers, or tiers, they're going to do something different as more countries want to go for it. (And I'm someone who likes that every country that wishes to currently can go to certain events.)
Also bear in mind that the men's and women's championships are , likewise, the qualification events for the Olympics, and they don't let every team in, and it's hard to argue that it's any less fair.
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04-20-16 08:18PM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
Soccer has 32 and they are thinking to increase (since it's good for the development of the lowest countries).
off topic: you don't seriously believe that 'development' is the reason why FIFA is considering expanding the WC do you?
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04-20-16 08:21PM |
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monticello
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 12 |
quote: Originally posted by PeelOfShame
One of the things to consider - beyond 42 teams (or so), it starts to get unmanageable to hold the event. I think we're in a special case for these last two years with Mixed Doubles, since we are in the run-up to the Olympics, that they're not going to change the rules now... but I'd imagine that starting with 2019, they'll have different rules as they look towards qualifying for 2022. Whether that's regional qualifiers, or tiers, they're going to do something different as more countries want to go for it. (And I'm someone who likes that every country that wishes to currently can go to certain events.)
Also bear in mind that the men's and women's championships are , likewise, the qualification events for the Olympics, and they don't let every team in, and it's hard to argue that it's any less fair.
I don't see any problem of having more than 42 teams.. That's what the group stage is all about... the weak teams are out after 5 or 6 games...
The problem with zonal event are that not every zone is well represented.. For example: South America (my case).
And about the fairness of the men/women teams.. I would ask how fair is a world championship where Americas has 2 spots (and 3 teams) while Asia has 2 spots and 7 teams..
For example, for Brazilians to go to the Mens Worlds in 2018, we have to beat Canada(!!!) in a best of 5 games..
For Europeans to go, be the 7th place in the European is enough...
While Asian has 3 top notch teams (Japan, China and Korea), but only 2 can qualify.
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04-20-16 08:31PM |
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PeelOfShame
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 31 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
The problem with zonal event are that not every zone is well represented.. For example: South America (my case).
And about the fairness of the men/women teams.. I would ask how fair is a world championship where Americas has 2 spots (and 3 teams) while Asia has 2 spots and 7 teams..
There, I agree with you entirely. The zone system has its own problems which need to be reformed (and I think that's been hashed out in another thread).
Vis a vis size - it's the question of how long it would take to hold the event and where it could be held if it keeps getting bigger. But, as an example - since mixed doubles is faster than traditional curling, I could easily imagine a 24-team field in an "A" tier.
But, I definitely feel for where you're coming from. I might live in the States, but I'm in Israel's corner, so bear that in mind.
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04-20-16 09:26PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
We know it's not going to change before the Olympics. After... we shall see.
I don't like the zone system either, which is why I prefer a world divisional system. If you're not good enough, you shouldn't be in the top flight, but if you gain promotion, you earned it... but now you'll have to get better to stay there.
I understand it's tough to get funding... but I'm sorry, a 42 team, any country can participate, event is.. well, it's another reason why a lot of people in more traditional countries don't take the event seriously.
And if you really want Brazil to become more than a participant, getting funding only to play in a participation event that you have no hope in winning is not going to help. I get the idea of playing stronger teams makes you better, but there is a limit to that. You don't learn much when you're getting beaten up, repeatedly.
But that's just my thoughts... and obviously we disagree.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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04-21-16 08:00AM |
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misty1
Supreme Champion!
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 6002 |
the problem with mixed doubles is that its very unpredictable, you dont really know what teams to drop into a 2nd tier division because it seems like every year there are 1 or 2 new teams making the playoffs that hadnt before
look at england and turkey and even slovakia this year.
sure there are those teams that always seems to get through the grouplike hungary,norway, russia, and canada or if not every year they do so with good consistency . the problem is though as i said that you dont know who is going to fill out that bracket.
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04-21-16 08:35AM |
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shirleyc
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 51 |
Does anyone know when Canada plays again and if it will be streamed? I was so grateful with the advice about the Canada/China game and watched it.
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04-21-16 08:38AM |
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shirleyc
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 51 |
world mixed doubles
Does anyone know when Canada plays next and if it will be streamed?
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04-21-16 08:51AM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
I don't see any problem of having more than 42 teams.. That's what the group stage is all about... the weak teams are out after 5 or 6 games...
The problem with zonal event are that not every zone is well represented.. For example: South America (my case).
And about the fairness of the men/women teams.. I would ask how fair is a world championship where Americas has 2 spots (and 3 teams) while Asia has 2 spots and 7 teams..
For example, for Brazilians to go to the Mens Worlds in 2018, we have to beat Canada(!!!) in a best of 5 games..
For Europeans to go, be the 7th place in the European is enough...
While Asian has 3 top notch teams (Japan, China and Korea), but only 2 can qualify.
Wouldn't you be playing the USA instead? Canada finished ahead of the US in the worlds.
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04-21-16 08:55AM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
quote: Originally posted by monticello
I don't see any problem of having more than 42 teams.. That's what the group stage is all about... the weak teams are out after 5 or 6 games...
That's 5 or 6 games that aren't needed. A world championship is not an appropriate stage for being all-inclusive and having third and fourth tier teams in the competition. Not to pick on Qatar again, but as an example they've lost their 6 games by a total of 104-4.....look, I'm sorry, but that doesn't belong at a world event.
Any number of approaches can tighten the field before getting to worlds - promotion/relegation, preliminary tournaments or qualifiers.
Last edited by nelsosi on 04-21-16 at 08:57AM
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