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04-22-16 09:26AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Agreed. The answer remains to return to the old rule of sweeping across the running surface of the stone at an agle of between 60-90 degrees.


I mean no ill will by this statement, but please do not say that we agree, because we certainly do not agree on your angle proposition. I think your proposal is a poorly thought out silly idea that will only lead to controversy and arguments. But as I have said before, probably in this thread, it is OK that we disagree, and I'm sure you think my proposals are silly as well.

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04-22-16 02:19PM
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Actually, I was agreeing with your statement about the closed stance. Nothing more. Lol.

But the only argument I hear from people against a 60-90 degree sweeping stroke across the path and going across the running surface is its apparently 'too hard' to call.

Now that's just nonsense. At its quickest an official will be able to watch sweepers for 10 seconds on a peel. If referees are able to make consistently accurate calls in plays that happen in 10th's of a second they are capable of calling someone for snowplowing.

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04-22-16 04:05PM
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There does not seem to be any easy solution to solve this sweeping delema.IMHO the new rules (when they come ) has to be simple and easy to implement. The last thing needed is rules that require a Philadelphia lawyer to understand. Material used on brush heads obviously have to be tested..also the thickness of foam backing on brush heads have to be policed.From what I have watched on TV this winter implementing one brush per sweeper each game or even one brush per competition would surely defuse directional sweeping. Being able to use 4 brush heads per game is ridiculous. The Popeye the sailor front enders will still make craters in the ice if this continues.So something simple like this would work for me....can ONLY use material approved by CC and WCF.......One brush only per player(no swapping brushes between players OR brush heads)....Must sweep across the entire face of running rock(I'm with Jamcan on this one). Just hope they get it right over the summer.....With that I am out...gone golfing...have a good summer everyone.



Two things can happen....One is bad

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04-22-16 04:55PM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Actually, I was agreeing with your statement about the closed stance. Nothing more. Lol.

But the only argument I hear from people against a 60-90 degree sweeping stroke across the path and going across the running surface is its apparently 'too hard' to call.

Now that's just nonsense. At its quickest an official will be able to watch sweepers for 10 seconds on a peel. If referees are able to make consistently accurate calls in plays that happen in 10th's of a second they are capable of calling someone for snowplowing.



If you assume that sweeping at an angle is more effective than at 90, then no matter what you set the rules at, people will try to be exactly at the angle of limit. Set it at 60-90, people will try to sweep at exactly 60. Set it 80-90, people will try to sweep exactly at 80. So the problem you have is that it is easy to see the difference between 60 adn 90, or 45 and 90. But it is impossible to see the difference between 60 and 61. Heck, it would be impossible to see the difference between 55 and 65 degrees. And that is with the sweepers standing still and not running down the ice, and no skip, cameraman, other official or sweeper in the way of an officials ability to see the exact sweeping motion, and having 1 official per sweeper looking at every stroke, and not having a length of 100 feet to watch.

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04-22-16 08:06PM
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jamcan
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Fair enough curlky, then perhaps it's best to call it 80-90 degrees. Reality is there has to be a little wiggle room for the officials and the players. And there will have to be some subjectivity in the umpires calls.

This exists in all officiated sports. The strike zone in baseball is an excellent example or how some referees allow a little bit of hooking here and there in hockey.

Regardless, the final goal is to eliminate-as much as possible-the snowplowing/directional technique and have the micro-scratches run across the path of the stone and not with the path. This, again, gives us the result we all want: more emphasis placed on the skill of the thrower.

In addition, we still have to work on the science of the equipment. Hair and fabric need to be properly evaluated and regulated as does anything which comes into contact with the playing surface.

But all the banning of materials will mean absolutely nothing if we do not wake up to the reality that it's technique which is causing the biggest impact. It has to be controlled first and foremost. Otherwise, directional sweeping will continue to be a thorn in the side of the game.

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Last edited by jamcan on 04-22-16 at 08:12PM

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04-22-16 10:48PM
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jamcam watch a few of these videos from a few years back. Tell me what angle these people are sweeping at, as if you were an official. Lets say your rule 80-90 is the rule. Can you tell if any of these are OK?

Sweeper on left side of screen: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=1129

Sweeper on right side of screen: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=3624

Sweeper on left, were all of his strokes within your 80-90 window?: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=7146

Either sweeper, what is their angle of sweeping?: https://youtu.be/RexNmcD3iEE?t=3156

Either sweeper, were they always within yiour window?: https://youtu.be/RCwNd6P6S94?t=55

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04-22-16 11:49PM
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Curlky, obviously the only way to judge the angle is from above. At some times your videos are and are not. Because they are quick cuts from TV coverage. As such they are certainly not valid for officials to make decisions.

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04-23-16 10:23AM
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If the only way to judge is from above, how could an official call that on the ice then?

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04-23-16 10:44AM
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Cool

Well there's this new fangled thingy called radio...

Seriously though, they just do what they used to when we had hog line judges. The judge radioed the violation to the officials behind the sheet and then the stone was removed. Pretty simple process.

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Last edited by jamcan on 04-23-16 at 12:16PM

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04-23-16 01:26PM
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Not a simple process at all. Now each set will need overhead cameras. Probably a minimum of 4 overheads per sheet, maybe 5. Then you need an official to monitor each sweeper on each sheet. I can see how this woudl be really easy to implement at a club or regional playdown level.

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04-23-16 08:39PM
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Itsjustagame
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
jamcam watch a few of these videos from a few years back. Tell me what angle these people are sweeping at, as if you were an official. Lets say your rule 80-90 is the rule. Can you tell if any of these are OK?

Sweeper on left side of screen: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=1129

Sweeper on right side of screen: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=3624

Sweeper on left, were all of his strokes within your 80-90 window?: https://youtu.be/2rQzRMSR1x0?t=7146

Either sweeper, what is their angle of sweeping?: https://youtu.be/RexNmcD3iEE?t=3156

Either sweeper, were they always within yiour window?: https://youtu.be/RCwNd6P6S94?t=55




In EVERY team major sport, officials are there to use their judgement and to call it the way they see it. Why are you so against that in curling? Sure officials make mistakes but then it's up to the athlete to CLEARLY be in within the rule. Officials don't need a laser 3D GPS to prove they were sweeping at 79.998 degrees.

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04-24-16 11:23AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by Itsjustagame
In EVERY team major sport, officials are there to use their judgement and to call it the way they see it. Why are you so against that in curling?


Because I don't see officials in curling being equivalent to officials in baseball, basketball, football, hockey, etc. The difference is that for those team sports, you must have officials to really play a competitive game. Curling is a sport like golf, wherein the game can be played competitively with or without officials. It has the same rules and enforcement at the local fun club level all the way up to the professional or Olympic level.

Also, I dont think that sweeping angle can be called even close to reliably by an official. Here are some reasons why.

- Most clubs do not have any cameras, let alone overheads on every sheet.
- Most clubs dont have officials for most games beign played.
- Most clubs dont have walk space around each sheet, so space for an officials to stand to call things on the ice would not exist
- The length of the ice would make it hard for 1 official to make calls on the ice, so now you would need multiple officials on the ice, in a sport where no extra money exists to pay officials.
- 1 official cannot monitor 2 sweepers since the sweeeping motion is far too fast.
- the curling sheet does not have extra space, so a live officials would have to deal with looking around sweepers, skips, etc.

It is my belief that people like you and jamcam who want official enforcement of the calls, only think about big national or world level events. They fail to think about club and bonspiel level.

So I challenge you, type out how you would enforce an angle call. There are lots of problems when you get into the fine details, and I think that if you think through the problem to the solution, you will see how those manifest themselves.

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04-24-16 01:01PM
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And you're dead wrong.

I agree with the idea of self officiating. And curlers at all levels, for the majority, are honourable and respect the rules. Do we have hogline officials or electronic rocks in every club? At every regional or provincial level of playdowns? No. But we do have people at those events in case someone decides to play fast and loose with the rules.

You believe an umpire is not capable of judging, from an overhead angle,the sweeping angles of two sweepers, following the same stone as it takes anywhere from 10-25 seconds to travel over one hundred feet? You're not seriously suggesting that humans are that stupid are you?

Umpires would be there, as they are now, monitoring the games and not stepping in as long as people adhere to the rules. It's a pretty simple concept that works. Play by the rules, you have no problems. Cross the line and you get nabbed.

And in ANY of my posts on this topic have I even hinted at your allegations of referees in clubs? No. So I do find offensive your attempts to twist my words to suit your argument.

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04-24-16 02:48PM
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jamcam, the fact that you have not bring up club curling is not an argument agasint me as you say you have taken offense to, it is a lack of coming up with a complete solution on yoru part. Sweeping angle and calling a hog line violation are not even close to the same thing. At the club level, without an official, I stand and look down the line while the other team delivers. If I think they have gone over, or have gone close, I dont call it at first, I just say somethign to the other team that you are getting closed at the line. First time warning type of thing. The hogline is not dynamic, it inot a moving target, and it is an amazingly simple call. Sweeping angle is not.

But you still insist on an overhead angle. How many events have multiple overhead cameras on every sheet? This is not a small detail to overlook.

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04-24-16 03:29PM
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
jamcam, the fact that you have not bring up club curling is not an argument agasint me as you say you have taken offense to, it is a lack of coming up with a complete solution on yoru part. Sweeping angle and calling a hog line violation are not even close to the same thing. At the club level, without an official, I stand and look down the line while the other team delivers. If I think they have gone over, or have gone close, I dont call it at first, I just say somethign to the other team that you are getting closed at the line. First time warning type of thing. The hogline is not dynamic, it inot a moving target, and it is an amazingly simple call. Sweeping angle is not.

But you still insist on an overhead angle. How many events have multiple overhead cameras on every sheet? This is not a small detail to overlook.



In Club play the unofficiated or general version of the rules are used so your hogline analogy is off as a person would have to call his own infraction for anything to be done.

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04-24-16 03:40PM
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jamcan
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Exactly. Curlky is merely attempting to cloud the issue by bringing in club level play.

The reality is there will be a grey area here. And if you're overly concerned about a player in your Monday night men's league sweeping at a slightly less angle than the rules then you probably need to take up a different sport.

But to address curlky's questions: if you have an important playdown event in a club environment then install temporary overhead cameras, in most arenas there are also sky boxes or broadcast booths high enough to make a proper judgement. Hell, an umpire can walk down the side of the sheet following a shot if the need calls for it. In short curlky, there is a solution to every scenario you suggest most of which are obvious to anyone who plays the sport.

As for enforcement, it all depends how serious a problem the WCF considers directional sweeping to be. I'd give an on ice warning first, followed by rock removal then (if a player is stupid enough to continue) game ejection with no substition including the loss of that athletes two stones. That's right folks, you'd play 6 against 8 for the games balance. Consider it curling's variation on the 5 minute major in hockey. Your entire team has to pay for your cheating.

Harsh? Perhaps. But you can't deny that penalties of this sort will send everyone a clear message that deliberate violations won't be tolerated. People would start sweeping across the path very quickly IMO.

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Last edited by jamcan on 04-24-16 at 05:42PM

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04-24-16 05:25PM
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It would be easy to call a player walking behind the rock sweeping in a mainly north-south direction which is what most players are doing. eliminate that and it is much harder to effectively sweep in the north-south directional pattern.

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05-01-16 04:26PM
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Still think it's technology folks? Read this and get your eyes opened...

http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...eeping.html?m=1

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05-01-16 05:39PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Still think it's technology folks? Read this and get your eyes opened...

http://hardlinecurlingnews.blogspot...eeping.html?m=1



Who beat whom with what equipment is irrelevant. What is relevant is the amount of control of curl various materials and equipment, with proper technique, can provide. We already know a lot about this by observing games this season pre- and post-moratorium. The summer months should allow for more empirical testing for rulemaking next season.

All fabric brushing materials will scratch the ice to some extent. The question is how much is acceptable? I think this is a sortable question, actually.

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05-01-16 08:21PM
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And what do you consider proper technique rockdoc? Hardline clearly states that the real issue is the direction that the micro-scratches are made. That snow plowing and cornering impart the greater influence than materials do.

In fact they are the only manufacturer who welcomes testing, asks for it but also states, clearly, that the real problem is a rule which allows snowplowing.

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05-01-16 08:56PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
And what do you consider proper technique rockdoc? Hardline clearly states that the real issue is the direction that the micro-scratches are made. That snow plowing and cornering impart the greater influence than materials do.

In fact they are the only manufacturer who welcomes testing, asks for it but also states, clearly, that the real problem is a rule which allows snowplowing.



It's not an either/or question. Angled sweeping AND materials both have an effect on curl control. The materials have a large range of microscratching effects, and will be the easiest to regulate. Everybody already knows the technique to maximize curl control (I.e. proper technique). If acceptable materials and construction limits can be determined, technique does not have to be addressed. Technique is not the ONLY factor in the effects of directional sweeping. It's going to be related to the density and possibly depth of scratches that can be deposited in the optimum direction by sweeping. Both materials and technique are important. Materials will have to be addressed no matter what, and are the most convenient starting point. Both hair and artificially textured fabrics are able to deposit a high density of aligned grooves in the ice surface by the nature of their physical construction and use during sweeping.

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05-01-16 09:21PM
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Simply put and in my view, this controversy is not unlike the limits placed on deep grooved wedge clubs in golf to control spin, club face coefficient of restitution and the banning of the belly putter which all brought about standards for golf, and improved the sport.

The curling world needs to standardize their sport, sweeping techniques and equipment as well. In my view, curling will be set back years if it doesn't. Get it done.

Last edited by CURLING NUTS on 05-01-16 at 09:26PM

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05-02-16 10:09AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc


It's not an either/or question. Angled sweeping AND materials both have an effect on curl control. The materials have a large range of microscratching effects, and will be the easiest to regulate. Everybody already knows the technique to maximize curl control (I.e. proper technique). If acceptable materials and construction limits can be determined, technique does not have to be addressed. Technique is not the ONLY factor in the effects of directional sweeping. It's going to be related to the density and possibly depth of scratches that can be deposited in the optimum direction by sweeping. Both materials and technique are important. Materials will have to be addressed no matter what, and are the most convenient starting point. Both hair and artificially textured fabrics are able to deposit a high density of aligned grooves in the ice surface by the nature of their physical construction and use during sweeping.



Actually you are not correct. Everyone does not understand or is able to use the technique. And there is no guarantee that regulating materials will reduce the influence of directional sweeping.

As pointed out, correctly, everything on the ice causes micro-scratches. From old style corn, to the stone, to the footwear. It all leaves a temporary mark on the ice and it does behoove us to ensure that any equipment that comes in contact with the surface should be controlled so it makes the least damage possible.

But this is a cart before the horse issue. As long as players are permitted to make sweeping micro-scratches in line with the stones path then less emphasis will be on the throwers skill than on the brushes.

Contrary to your statement, technique CAN be easily controlled and monitored. We had no issue, in fact, until the rule was changed and it became legal to snowplow, corner and dump again. It's a simple matter of instruction and enforcement. As easily as players transitioned to plowing, so to will they adapt to rules which outlaw it.

When the micro-scratches run across the path of the stone and not with it, directional sweeping is greatly reduced. If you want a premium placed on shooting ability then you must first change the rule on technique and then address the technology.

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05-02-16 10:43AM
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I'm pretty sure anyone who has not been under a rock this year knows the basic technique of directional sweeping. It's an open secret. Folks are even doing it well at the club level, maybe better since the "magic brooms" are not illegal at this level. You can even do it well without snowplowing: a "normal" 45 degree stroke is still effective in directional sweeping.

Materials DO make a difference, and this cannot be ignored. Materials and construction will have to be addressed to even the field and limit effectiveness of directional sweeping. Enforcing rules on sweeping angle is going to be more difficult to achieve in practice, and I don't see curling associations going there unless the desired result cannot be achieved with regulation of materials. Materials are relatively easy and objective to regulate; not so much sweeping angle. (Get out your protractors.) Maybe there will need to be regulations on both materials and technique to achieve the desired result, but if the former can do it, that's going to be the least disruptive to the conduct of the game. (Who wants to get referees more involved? One of the nice things about curling is the relative lack of referee interference.)

Cheers.

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dugless_zone 13
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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

"Materials and construction will have to be addressed to even the field"

I'm confused by this, are you saying that there should be one broom style, with everyone using the same materials? Where is the innovation, the improvement? We have seen huge changes over the last 10-15 years. Would you rather be using that ratty 10" brownie broom of old?

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