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04-11-16 04:09PM
jamcan is offline Click Here to See the Profile for jamcan Click here to Send jamcan a Private Message Find more posts by jamcan Add jamcan to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
jamcan
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Broomgate-what is next?

Now that the two world championships are done the elephant in the room must be addressed: What will be done with the sweeping controversy?

Many people, myself included, have varied, differing opinions on how this should be handled. But there is one clear, underlying theme throughout: directional sweeping must be addressed before the next season begins.

I believe that we must begin proper, controlled, scientific testing (presuming it isn't already underway) to ascertain how much of this dilemma is technique and what part technology is playing. I believe it is a combination of both but we need to discover which tips the scales the most. All our opinions, self testing and poorly made home videos are meaningless. Real, clear data is needed to help the decision making process.

Therefore I feel we must all, not a select few, make our voices heard by our governing bodies and demand they do the proper things. The WCF is soon to hold a sweeping summit and the decisions they make will affect us all, competitive or recreational players, so speak up and let your voice be heard.

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04-11-16 05:17PM
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curlky
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I've alluded to this in the past, but I will be more direct in this thread, and I am sure that I will get slammed for my opinion.

It is not practical for curling to afford all of the proper testing that is necessary to make a full complete scientific analysis of the situation. What is most likely to come out of all of this mess is this:

A few rules on technique that are worded so as to not be subjective. Technique will largely be untouched, for lots of reasons, but mostly due to ease in non-officiated matches, and to eliminate controversy on the ice. After the USA-Japan situation, what can now be seen is that anything that could be slightly subjective WILL lead to controversy, which is not wanted.

A bunch of rules about equipment. Some examples might be - Maximum "grit" of fabric. Minimum durometer of foam material (softness or firmness of material). Minimum thickness of foam pad. Minimum size of broom pad.

A possible set of rules about broom usage, like no swapping of brooms, or no switching sides with brooms, etc.

All testing begin done will be not focused on one supplier material over another. It will just be focused on determine what head parameters need to be tested, and which do not.

So focus will be on approved equipment, much to the chagrin of many on here. Feel free to bookmark this post if you want, and feel free to give me grief if I am wrong.

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04-11-16 05:18PM
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Ajay
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There has been lots of discussion about sweeping complexities that have developed and I feel that a very simple, common sense approach would resolve everything. The wcf can determine the extent of abrasiveness they wish to allow and then all brushes used must meet only that standard. Easy to police. Then let the players sweep however they want, how much they want, how many they want, how they want to stand or walk etc. ( likely much like they have been doing for decades). Only officiating would be ensuring all brushes are approved. Eliminates any self policing responsibilities of the players.
Knowing that there is little officiating built into the game because the onus is supposedly on the curlers which I feel is no longer reasonable given what is on the line. Hence, any solution should require very little policing, self or otherwise.

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04-11-16 05:43PM
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ngm
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My actual contribution to this discussion

In the unlikely event that The Powers That Be are reading any of this, I would also have the following to say about the technical testing. The first person you hire should be a real statistician (not the curling data collector types...I mean an actual statistician), who should ultimately be in charge of the testing program. By all means have other technical experts and curling people involved, but don't put them in charge. And do not under any circumstances do all the testing first and then take the results of your naive, poorly designed, and ill-conceived tests to a statistician after the fact.

Me shooting the breeze

One sweeper at a time is here to stay. Keeping rocks a little straighter is here to stay. Carving rocks around guards is what I think needs to be targeted more than anything else.

The solution will need to be threefold.

1. Technical requirements of brush heads, applied to all levels of the game. I don't have enough technical knowledge to comment much more here on the physics.

2. Sweeping technique applied to all levels of the game. The simplest language I can come up with is: the entire brush head must contact the ice across the entire running surface of the stone with every stroke.

3. Brush management in officiated play. Max two brushes can be used between the tee lines by the playing team. One on one side only. The other on the other side only.

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04-11-16 07:21PM
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Island Roger
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You just need to find a way to put 75% of the outcome in the throwers hands. Not the sweepers. Easier said than done.

Brush head material needs to be softened.

Stroke needs to be parallel.

No sweeping until the half way point is an interesting thought.

No watches on the ice.

No lights on the rocks. As we've seen those handles just cause more trouble than they are worth.

Lets roll back the clock a bit.

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04-11-16 10:53PM
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mgulseth
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I know I am in the minority, but am I the only one that thinks the new brushing technique has actually improved the game? I am not talking about percentages, that is obvious. Curling is a game of accuracy and strategy, and being able to manage these "new" skills just adds another thing to master...or to just be better at than your opponent.

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04-11-16 11:40PM
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Prawnpuller
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In my opinion the solution is simple,however ,likely needs testing of material.
1. Any brush heads that scratches or damages the ice is outlawed.The material used on brush heads must only polish.
2. One competition one brush.......no swapping brushes between players depending on the shot called.

The decision makers need something simple yet effective to stop this idiotic carving of rocks around guards. Most of today's top teams have perfected this technique and good on them but it's wrong.The final men's world game with players tossing brushes the length of the ice to their teammates depending on the shots is just hard to watch. Bush league comes to mind.I just hope CC and of course WCF nips all this in the bud and get it right BEFORE next curling season.



Two things can happen...........One is bad

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04-12-16 09:02AM
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curlky
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
In my opinion the solution is simple,however ,likely needs testing of material.
1. Any brush heads that scratches or damages the ice is outlawed.The material used on brush heads must only polish.



This might come off as harsh, but your statement is flat out impossible. 100% of materials will scratch the ice. Some microscopically, others will make huge easily visible gashes. Also, do you know what polishing is? It is basically scratching the material, but on a micro scale.

For example, if you take a piece of wood, and sand it with 20 grit sand paper, you are scratching it, adn the end result if rough to the touch. Sand it with 1000 grit sand paper, and you are still putting scratched onto the wood (actually more) but since they are smaller the end result feels smooth or polished. But if you look at it closely, it is still very scratched.

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04-12-16 12:29PM
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Prawnpuller
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky


This might come off as harsh, but your statement is flat out impossible. 100% of materials will scratch the ice. Some microscopically, others will make huge easily visible gashes. Also, do you know what polishing is? It is basically scratching the material, but on a micro scale.

For example, if you take a piece of wood, and sand it with 20 grit sand paper, you are scratching it, adn the end result if rough to the touch. Sand it with 1000 grit sand paper, and you are still putting scratched onto the wood (actually more) but since they are smaller the end result feels smooth or polished. But if you look at it closely, it is still very scratched.




You are splitting hairs..what I meant was material that is smooth(on a brush head) as opposed to rough and blatantly makes marks in the ice. As a retired Ice Technician my hair stands up when I hear or see of any abrasive material that causes visible damage to the ice. I hope the top Ice Techs in the world will be involved in this decision making as they are likely more aware of ice damaging material than most.



Two things can happen.......One is bad

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04-12-16 12:55PM
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hurryhard
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Broomgate-reply

I do agree with you that input should come in from all sources. It does affect all from the elite curler to the novice curler. It is amazing what they can do making the shots they do but also remember the have the best stones too use that must do not and they have the best ice that a lot of us will never see.

I think it needs to be discussed and understood but these athletes are the best. It is just like pro golfers they make incredible shots that most of us can't do but there rules are the same as the public golfer they just know how to do it better.

It will be interesting to see the discussion.

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04-12-16 02:10PM
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jamcan
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Some interesting comments here so far with the general consensus (for the most part) acknowledging that testing is required and there should be rules governing equipment and technique.

Obviously both need to be tested. And while sweeping is an integral part of the game, we have to ensure that the primary emphasis is put on the skill of the thrower and that sweeping plays a secondary part in aiding the shots success or failure.

Now I have heard the argument that we should just do nothing and allow any technique with an emphasis on the material. I believe that would be a grave error. Snowplowing and cornering can make a poorly thrown shot when it should have been a miss. This, IMO, is contrary to the wish to place the emphasis on the thrower. The analogy I would use is the golf ball guaranteed to travel dead straight no matter how bad your swing is. There is little skill in that.

Yet, good sweepers should also not be penalized so there has to be a balance with the rule reflecting such. To that I submit this for your consideration:

1) there must be a rule that clearly states the proper sweeping motion and length of stroke. I have written before that the brush stroke should cross the entire running surface of the stone. The rule should also clearly stipulate the angle at which the stroke is allowed. I do not believe it has to be a perfect 90 degrees, but somewhere between 60-90. The WCF should create a clear demonstration video of what is acceptable so all curlers understand this without confusion.

2) I am in complete agreement that teams should not be allowed to switch brooms during the course of a game. In the 90's we had the controversy over corn brooms and eventually came out with the 'one weapon' rule. In short, you choose what broom you are sweeping with for that game and unless it breaks you can use ONLY that broom for sweeping.

3) The one sweeper phenomenom is here to stay and we can do nothing to change that-you cannot force someone to sweep after all. But keep in mind that if you eliminate snowplowing you will reduce the effectiveness of the single sweeper-again putting more of the onus on the thrower.

4) ensure that officials are trained properly to make good decisions at appropriate times and that there are clear, harsh penalties for players who willfully and continually play fast and loose with the new rules.

5) Test the materials and clearly list what is acceptable and what is not. (And for goodness sakes remove the silly ban on hair brushes)

Now I know that many of you want our sport to stay self-policing. But I think we all need to come to the realization that this is not entirely possible. We are now a sport where much more is on the line than ever before. There will, as a result, be athletes who are willing to push those rules to gain an edge over their competition. I am certain we all know this is a fact of life in all other sports.

Therefore, we have no choice but allow greater involvement from officials. But, if we are clear on the new rules and there are harsh penalties, those athletes I mention will be in the minority. And yes we will have to accept that officials will make mistakes because of subjective judgement-but that is why we must have a clear, unvague rule for them to follow.

In conclusion, eliminating snowplowing and controlling equipment will almost eliminate directional sweeping ( you cant rid the sport of it entirely, the whole basis of sweeping is, in essence, directional) and place the emphasis on shotmaking where it belongs-the thrower.

Good posts though, keep 'em coming.

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Last edited by jamcan on 04-12-16 at 02:35PM

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04-13-16 12:33AM
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On The Nose
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quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth
I know I am in the minority, but am I the only one that thinks the new brushing technique has actually improved the game?


Yes.

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04-13-16 09:13AM
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curlky
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jamcam, you are wrong on 1, 2 & the last half of 5. Your statement "there should be rules governing equipment and technique." my feelings, 90% equipment, 10% technique, and maybe 95-5 would be better.

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04-13-16 04:50PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth
I know I am in the minority, but am I the only one that thinks the new brushing technique has actually improved the game? I am not talking about percentages, that is obvious. Curling is a game of accuracy and strategy, and being able to manage these "new" skills just adds another thing to master...or to just be better at than your opponent.


I don't see a problem with directional sweeping, PROVIDED the effect is limited to a reasonable level. If anything, directional sweeping has made the game more complicated and potentially more challenging. The problem now is that the current magnitude of directional sweeping takes single guards out of play to a very large extent. That, admittedly, does not make the game more interesting.

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04-13-16 04:56PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by ngm

Me shooting the breeze

One sweeper at a time is here to stay. Keeping rocks a little straighter is here to stay. Carving rocks around guards is what I think needs to be targeted more than anything else.

The solution will need to be threefold.

1. Technical requirements of brush heads, applied to all levels of the game. I don't have enough technical knowledge to comment much more here on the physics.

2. Sweeping technique applied to all levels of the game. The simplest language I can come up with is: the entire brush head must contact the ice across the entire running surface of the stone with every stroke.

3. Brush management in officiated play. Max two brushes can be used between the tee lines by the playing team. One on one side only. The other on the other side only.



I think you are right on target. I strongly suspect #2 is not the major problem. The ANGLE of sweeping is likely the major element of technique efficiency. (But I would like to see more empirical studies on this.) I do think it is possible that #1 and #3 may be sufficient to limit directional sweeping to a dull roar, then #2 just won't matter so much, and you don't have to subjectively regulate it.

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04-13-16 05:31PM
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Ajay
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Any rules that include mandated brushing techniques that requires officiating resulting in the removal of rocks based on an officials arbitrary assessment, will in my opinion not work or improve the game.

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04-13-16 05:42PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
Any rules that include mandated brushing techniques that requires officiating resulting in the removal of rocks based on an officials arbitrary assessment, will in my opinion not work or improve the game.
Players that can't follow rules are basically cheaters. If it takes officials to point this out and enforce these rules it can only improve the game. Players instead of rocks should be removed if they can't play fair, this stick handling of rocks is ruining the game.

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04-16-16 03:14PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by curlky
jamcam, you are wrong on 1, 2 & the last half of 5. Your statement "there should be rules governing equipment and technique." my feelings, 90% equipment, 10% technique, and maybe 95-5 would be better.


Fair enough curlky, you're entitled to your opinion as are all. We'll have to agree to disagree because I believe that history will prove this is technique over tech.

Why? well consider that this phenomenon didn't even rear its head until after a previous rule, clear, simple and in place for over 20 years, was changed to the current, vague one.

Back in the 80's curlers were up in arms about snowplowing, cornering and dumping. So a rule was written that forced sweepers to completely cross the running surface with each stroke. The skill in shotmaking was left in the hands of the thrower and the effect of sweeping was reduced.

Fast forward to a few years back and we have reopened Pandoras box. Albeit with better technology, but not overly dramatic improvements. Stepping away from synthetic fabric for a moment; consider the hair brush.

Aside from a few minor changes, Hair is still the same nylon brush-I haven't seen horse hair for years on a new product-that first arrived on those old, white Gowsell brooms from 1979.

Yet, when Brad Gushue released his teams video on Directional Sweeping using the hair brush with almost identical results to that of synthetic heads, the product got banned.

Why? well IMO it was because the WCF panicked. I believe Gushues video was in direct retaliation to the Howard Blackhead video which started this whole mess. Gushue, a Hardline sponsored team, wanted to show that it wasn't their sponsors product to be blamed but the technique. To prove his point he used a brush, effectively, that we've all used for the last 35 years without so much as a peep of protest.

Imagine you're the WCF and, after banning synthetic heads left and right without any science behind your decisions, you see this. What's your first thought? 'OMFG, we got this wrong and our ass is hung out to dry for the lawyers' So their only choice was, wait for it, ban the hair brush as well.

Anyways, where I'm going with this is simple; neither you or I (or pretty much anyone posting here for that matter) really, truly knows what's happening. I think it's technique based on years of experience-including lots of my own snowplowing which even with a 2 year old brush, still works-and you have your own reasons for your stance on the issue.

In the end what this cries out for is obvious-testing, testing and testing. Which, as I have posted time and again, is what we should have done in the first place and I think its something that you and I could agree on-get some real data.

Banning the products without any proof, people, was wrong. I cannot stress that strongly enough, it was plain, bone-stupid wrong.

We had history (in the form of the old rule) to guide us and we ignored it. And, in the words of Santiago, we repeated the same problems we had in the 80's. Yes, there are some new things in the mix, but its the same issue. Go sit with some old fogeys from back in the day and they'll tell you its pretty much the same talk as before.

All the WCF has to do is to put the old rule back in place while they conduct their tests. If anything, it would suddenly reduce the impact of DS while they gather their data.

I know I'm hoping for common sense to prevail here. It's (as Gandalf said in the Return of The King) a fools hope, but still a hope, nonetheless.

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04-16-16 08:31PM
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peteski
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Pretty good discussion here.

I will echo some and say that I think officials enforcing techniques will be difficult. This is not really a fear of having officials, as I think there are situations where they should be more involved (non-offending team type situations). It is more an issue of the subjectivity of the offense and difficulty of enforcement. Is someone watching from behind the sheet going to be able to tell if someone is sweeping across the entire running surface and at an acceptable angle? It just seems very difficult to me and likely very subjective. If there are some useful rules about techniques that are relatively easy to enforce I'm all for them, but I'm just not sure if there are.

However, based on what I saw from the men's worlds, the brooms are only effective directionally if they are "sharp". Right? So, as long as we have brooms that are not "sharp", do we really have any problems? Presumably (hopefully) there's a fabric out there that is never really sharp. Couldn't they simply mandate such a fabric? Wouldn't this be simpler?

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04-18-16 03:15PM
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mgulseth
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quote:
Originally posted by On The Nose


Yes.



I guess you don't get to speak for the entire world after all

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04-18-16 03:29PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
However, based on what I saw from the men's worlds, the brooms are only effective directionally if they are "sharp". Right? So, as long as we have brooms that are not "sharp", do we really have any problems? Presumably (hopefully) there's a fabric out there that is never really sharp. Couldn't they simply mandate such a fabric? Wouldn't this be simpler?


I think this is likely to be the initial direction of rule-making. Almost any material will be more effective when brand-new, but it's more "magical" steering effects rapidly decline with use. Limiting brushing materials that are less effective to begin with will limit the carving effects, and lessen the incentive for "broom-saving" and "broom-swapping."

We've seen some other rule experimentation already: limiting brushes to one side of the sheet may also contribute to incentivizing the balancing of carving and dragging effects of brushes. This kind of rule also directly addresses the brush-swapping business.

I think the key will be finding acceptable materials that limit the amount you can re-direct a hack weight shot with best technique.

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04-21-16 05:02PM
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Interesting debate.

We have organizations that are looking at the good of the game and makes rules so skill is not taken over by technology.

To a certain point golf, manage to tweak rules and control technology to make sure we see the best skilled athletes win.

Let's define the eligible material to be used on the broom and what kind of insert, manufacturer will than work with an equal rules.

In regards of sweeping, in golf, it is my understanding that you can not stand on the path of the ball front or back.
So apply the same rules in curling, that should reduce significantly the pressure of the broom on corner sweeping and would be easier the enforce with official.

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04-21-16 09:18PM
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curlky
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Registered: Oct 2013
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Posts: 559

Sydney57, read the whole thread and so many like this. By sweeping in a closed stance, your feet are not in teh path of the rock, and you can sweep in almost a perfect snow plow, so feet placement will not solve this issue.

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04-21-16 09:45PM
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jamcan
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Sydney57, read the whole thread and so many like this. By sweeping in a closed stance, your feet are not in teh path of the rock, and you can sweep in almost a perfect snow plow, so feet placement will not solve this issue.


Agreed. The answer remains to return to the old rule of sweeping across the running surface of the stone at an agle of between 60-90 degrees.

If (and I say IF because I still believe proper testing is needed) the micro-scratch theory is correct (as I believe it to be), then sweeping is temporarily grooving the ice in front of the stone.

So if you are allowed to snowplow then you are able to create these grooves in the ice and greatly influence the movement of the rock.

Think of it this way: have you ever driven on grooved pavement? then you know your tires desperately want to follow the direction of the grooves. That, unscientifically, is what snowplowing does. So, yes, the nastier the groove (i.e. made by a more abrasive brush head) the greater the influence. Therefore, technology does play a part but not as great a part as the technique.

Now, change the technique rule so the grooves run across the path and not with it. What happens? The stone is not as greatly influenced and more of the shot's outcome is dependent on the skill of the thrower.

I know I'm repeating myself but change the rule back first, then test the fabrics and make some good, fact based decisions.

But test this. It's too important to be left in the hands of a very small group of players who think they have the answers when they don't even have the facts.

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Last edited by jamcan on 04-21-16 at 09:53PM

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04-22-16 12:35AM
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On The Nose
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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:
Originally posted by mgulseth


I guess you don't get to speak for the entire world after all


Do you actually see anyone in this thread - or even anywhere on this message board - who believes that the current sweeping situation has improved the game?

Anyone except you, I mean.

I haven't seen any poster say that.
Just you.

Ergo, my initial response to you.

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