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04-19-16 05:12PM
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Good reason to cut CCA funding

So if I have it right.....world curling events can qualify a Canadian team for Canadian Olympic curling play downs(or trials if you prefer) but the Hearts winner, Canadian Women's Champion, doesn't.......

Seems we have the funding all wrong! Cut a few million from CCA and they can pick up the difference from world curling as they seem to think it is more important than Canadian championships.

Maybe cut the CAC, (Canadian Ass. of Coaches) funding as they don't seem to find employment in Canada either.

Now we have a pool of cash that could go to real Canadian Curling Clubs.

I wonder if the Sports Minister's office could clarify why Canadian funds are being used to support an organization that clearly has little regard for Canadian Curling?

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04-20-16 02:09AM
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As I understand it, the winner of the Canadian Championship ('Scotties') gets a spot in the Olympic trials if they medal at the World Championships following the Scotties.
Seems fair enough to want the Scotties winner to back up their win before being granted a spot in the trials, especially, as most knowledgeable curling fans will likely agree, that winning at least a bronze medal at the World's is easier than winning the Scotties outright.

All that said, in reality, since their Scotties win, the Carey team hasn't looked like they deserve a spot in the Olympic trials.

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04-20-16 11:28AM
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Re: Good reason to cut CCA funding

quote:
Originally posted by watcher2
So if I have it right.....world curling events can qualify a Canadian team for Canadian Olympic curling play downs(or trials if you prefer) but the Hearts winner, Canadian Women's Champion, doesn't.......

Seems we have the funding all wrong! Cut a few million from CCA and they can pick up the difference from world curling as they seem to think it is more important than Canadian championships.

Maybe cut the CAC, (Canadian Ass. of Coaches) funding as they don't seem to find employment in Canada either.

Now we have a pool of cash that could go to real Canadian Curling Clubs.

I wonder if the Sports Minister's office could clarify why Canadian funds are being used to support an organization that clearly has little regard for Canadian Curling?



I was originally in your camp on this - why would Curling Canada require this year's Canadian champions to medal at the world championship to gain entry into the 2017 Canadian Olympic Trials? However, upon further reflection, since the Olympics are all about winning a medal (colour is not real important although gold is nice), to prove yourself as a worthy Olympic medal contender, it is important to show that you can medal against a crop of teams that will likely be similar at the Olympic games. That being said, Curling Canada granted that trials spot to a team that didn't even with this year's Canadian championship so there feels like there was a bit of back-pedaling on that.

Team Carey's performance at the World Championship was spotty and they were not good at all at the Players' Championship, albeit not with their full regular team.

As for Canadian curling coaches going to work internationally, if they could land comparable gigs in Canada, I don't think that would happen and when I say comparable gigs, I mean coaching jobs that pay as well as these international jobs pay. Canadian teams are not yet in a position where they can pay for full time coaches and other international jurisdictions are prepared to do it, that's why the coaches move elsewhere.

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04-20-16 03:58PM
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Ah yes, the monthly "Cut the funding to the CCA/Curling Canada/provincial associations" thread.

I actually don't mind the way the set the berths for the Olympic Trials for winners of the Scotties/Brier. You want the berth? Win a medal... since the Olympic Trials are all about winning a (gold) medal.

You don't win a medal, you still get to come back next year to try to win the Scotties/Brier. And (correct me if I'm wrong please) I think you still get a berth to the pre-trials event.

The Olympic Trials are for the best to the best, so having high standards is not a bad thing.

As for the cutting funding to the CAC... what, are you crazy? The reason why Canadian curling coaches are sought all over the world is that we have the best coaching development program in the world for the sport (and for many sports actually... the CAC covers a heck of a lot more than curling). And we have a very large pool of talented coaches for other countries to draw from, in a variety of positions (not just as "national" coaches, but at the club and regional level as well).

As a coach and player in Canada, we have resources for development that other countries don't have (thanks to those associations), so it makes sense for those other countries to raid our talent pool.

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04-20-16 04:16PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack
Ah yes, the monthly "Cut the funding to the CCA/Curling Canada/provincial associations" thread.

I actually don't mind the way the set the berths for the Olympic Trials for winners of the Scotties/Brier. You want the berth? Win a medal... since the Olympic Trials are all about winning a (gold) medal.

You don't win a medal, you still get to come back next year to try to win the Scotties/Brier. And (correct me if I'm wrong please) I think you still get a berth to the pre-trials event.

The Olympic Trials are for the best to the best, so having high standards is not a bad thing.

As for the cutting funding to the CAC... what, are you crazy? The reason why Canadian curling coaches are sought all over the world is that we have the best coaching development program in the world for the sport (and for many sports actually... the CAC covers a heck of a lot more than curling). And we have a very large pool of talented coaches for other countries to draw from, in a variety of positions (not just as "national" coaches, but at the club and regional level as well).

As a coach and player in Canada, we have resources for development that other countries don't have (thanks to those associations), so it makes sense for those other countries to raid our talent pool.



A lot of bull feathers in this post! The coaches of CAC are so valuable that they are pretty much non-existent in true professional sport, (NFL, CFL, NHL, NBA, etc.)

Other countries fully fund (pay salaries and expenses) for their curling teams to play here so they can easily develop better everything than Canada, certainly better coaching is no issue and if the CAC was that good they should be able to easily get international funding right! Might show what they are really worth on the open market!

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04-20-16 05:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288


A lot of bull feathers in this post! The coaches of CAC are so valuable that they are pretty much non-existent in true professional sport, (NFL, CFL, NHL, NBA, etc.)

Other countries fully fund (pay salaries and expenses) for their curling teams to play here so they can easily develop better everything than Canada, certainly better coaching is no issue and if the CAC was that good they should be able to easily get international funding right! Might show what they are really worth on the open market!



Huh.

I guess Mike Babcock and Jay Triano aren't professional coaches (NCCP Level 4 certified... and I believe Mr. Babcock did a lot of his training with the NCCP, which is run by CAC, prior to becoming the national team coach).

Is it the majority? Probably not... but I'd wager a lot more than just those two guys have taken coaching education through the NCCP. Maybe not the US professional leagues, more because the US runs a different system for coaching education, rather than the NCCP isn't "good enough" for them.

I would also suggest that CAC and NCCP is geared (and was originally intended) for amateur sports, but allows for a transition into professional coaching. The NCCP program has received enough recognition world-wide that professional coaches are taking courses through the program. I have met (non-curling) coaches from overseas taking some of the non-sport specific modules in the recent past... apparently their sporting associations funded them to take the courses in Canada.

So I guess in a way, international federations are funding the CAC by paying the tuition for those courses...

(Again, that's a bit of a weird argument... why doesn't the CAC get international funding? Would you want your country to support another country's coaching program? Nope... I'll just take their courses thanks! Curling Canada's coaching development program is considered as "the standard" for coaching in curling by the WCF and most other countries... but ok, sure, the program sucks and shouldn't be funded.)

I will agree though, coaching theory is useless if one doesn't have the experience and understanding of the sport. Book smart doesn't equate good coaching.

I have no idea what that last paragraph has to do with the CAC. Yes, teams are funded to come to Canada to compete, because the talent pool is deeper, and we just have that many more spiels to compete in. Plus things like the Slams, which are in Canada because that's where the revenue is. But Canadian teams are funded as well. So?

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04-22-16 10:06AM
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Well 2 Professional coaches out of how many??? It's more of a coincidence than a statement.

Let's face it, CAC is a dream bunch of wantabees supported by Canadian Universities for funding reasons. The only reason other sports organizations support CAC programs is because the Sports Ministry twists their arms by threatening their funding if they do not. The Sports Ministry has to justify the tens of millions they give CAC and the Sport Centres which really are just University facilities. It's a shell game that has seriously threatened all sports. Volunteers with busy lives are not going to waste time taking nonsense courses give by beginners just to volunteer their time, not to mention pay a few hundred dollars for it.

These teams for other countries are funded (all expenses) and paid wages. The funding Canadian teams get is a laugh. Take the number and divide it by 4 or 5 and it amounts to nothing compared to the costs of travel, etc. Figure a living wage of $60,000 to $80,000 a year then add all the costs of travel, hotel, food, training facilities and see what the real costs are. A couple of hundred thousand for a 5 person team is $40,000 thousand each. Hardly a season worth of flights, hotels, meals, etc.

Last edited by lolar3288 on 04-22-16 at 10:14AM

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04-22-16 11:11AM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Well 2 Professional coaches out of how many??? It's more of a coincidence than a statement.

Let's face it, CAC is a dream bunch of wantabees supported by Canadian Universities for funding reasons. The only reason other sports organizations support CAC programs is because the Sports Ministry twists their arms by threatening their funding if they do not. The Sports Ministry has to justify the tens of millions they give CAC and the Sport Centres which really are just University facilities. It's a shell game that has seriously threatened all sports. Volunteers with busy lives are not going to waste time taking nonsense courses give by beginners just to volunteer their time, not to mention pay a few hundred dollars for it.




Lolar, I think everyone here understands how much you hate anything related to organizations running sports and coaching, and organized coaching, as you've been beating that drum for a very long time. But you're still wrong, and your beliefs are not facts... and you'll either have to understand how the world has changed, or get ignored and left behind.

To start, lets go with Hockey Canada and the NHL. You do realize that Hockey Canada and the NHL both support the NCCP? And most NHL coaches have taken courses at some point through the NCCP? That every national coach of Team Canada has had to be certified?

Actually, pretty much all amateur sports in Canada, and a growing number of professional ones, require some sort of coaching certification through the NCCP (or equivalent). The US uses a similar system that was set up around the same time that the Canadian one was developed. Many countries have similar systems, either developed through their national sporting associations, or by their world federations... or borrowed from countries that do.

Considering how Canada has improved on the world stage across multiple sports that use a formal coaching system since it's founding in the early 70's... well, better coaching may not be the only reason we've improved, but it certainly is one of them.

So keep dreaming and holding on to the past if you think that just because you "know" and have experience that you can walk into a rink/gym/field and be a coach.

As a volunteer at the lowest level, yeah, you can probably get away without it. But once you actually want to start developing athletes in any sport, you're going to have to take a course or three. And prove to your sport and to the people who you may be coaching that you actually have received some basic training.

(Not to mention liability reasons for having a standardized instruction and certification for coaches)

Now there does need to be a balance. I think the requirement of making coaches take the Comp-Dev course for curling might be pushing things just a bit too far (this will be a requirement for teams going to a national event), as it is a huge investment of time and money. That needs to be addressed.

But having one person at a club certified at the Club Coach level (which costs under $150 for a two day course) is a problem? Please... have one person certified (may be even a staff person) who can organize your clinics and can help standardize instruction isn't asking too much.

The Intro to Competition course is 2 days (+3 hours online) and costs just around $200 or so. Again, if you're taking a team into competition, I don't think that's that big of a inconvenience to take some standardized training on coaching skills, and more importantly, organizational skills... which I think is a bigger issue for coaches than the on-ice stuff.

Anyway, I know you're not going to agree with CAC and the NCCP. But I also know that you are still wishing about the way things were... and not adjusting to the way things are.

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Curling Scores

M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 6 -- Mon, Mar 18 -- 7:00pm AT
Gagn/Mori Final
Rees/Ches (EE)
Sand/Crai Final
Gamb/Kalt (8)
Arms/Grif Final
Pete/Gall (7) Watch Live Curling!
Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
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Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 12:00pm CET
Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
Cihl/Mace Final
Yang/Tian 10  (6)
: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
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Draw: 4 -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 10:00am MT
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Koe (5)
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