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M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
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04-08-16 10:17AM
tuck is offline Click Here to See the Profile for tuck Click here to Send tuck a Private Message Find more posts by tuck Add tuck to your buddy list Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
tuck
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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613

New HPP Junior Direction

Following the very successful New HPP Direction thread, it is time to split off a thread specifically for Juniors. The changes proposed (announced?) are truly significant.

I support the changes.

First and foremost, what we once had for Juniors is gone. If you were this year's Minnesota State Junior Champion, you are the last Minnesota State Junior Champ (or any other State or Region). State Juniors are a thing of the past.

State Juniors will be replaced by State (or Region) U-18s. I believe that regionality will be enforced as strictly as possible for this event. I hope they come up with a better name than State U-18s. I'm not suggesting Bantams or Youth, but both are better than U-18s.

Once the kids graduate high school and U-18s, it's off to college and Juniors. A lucky few will be asked to join the HPP Junior teams. I sincerely hope that locating near a National Curling Center is mandatory for this, but I'll expound more on that later. The rest will be left to self-form teams.

Once aged into Juniors, they will not play in a State Championship. They will play in the East or West Regionals to earn their way to Junior Nationals. I predict that is there that most kids will force their own way into the HPP. Yes, some will be plucked right out of U-18s...but those dedicated few who can win even from outside the HPP are the ones that will end up replacing those HPP Juniors who age out.

I think this is a good thing and I'll post my thinking very soon.

Ben Tucker

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04-08-16 10:38AM
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tuck
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The curling world has changed. Some think it has changed for the better and some think it has changed for the worse, but everyone who pays close attention knows that the curling world has changed.

One of these changes can be readily seen at World Juniors. No longer are our teams facing traditional Junior teams. We are competing against World Junior teams that are very well funded. It's painfully obvious for Men's and Women's when we compete against semi-professional teams. It is less obvious, but no less true, that we are facing semi-professional teams at World Juniors as well. Other nations are continuing and expanding their fiscal support of Juniors to allow them to focus their lives on curling. This will only increase in the near future.

So our Juniors have been facing well-funded teams at Worlds for a few years now. We just haven't chosen to give it much thought. It's hard to compete against semi-pros without selling your soul. We should not sell our soul. Ever...but especially for Juniors. It's Juniors. It's not the Olympics. Let's not live in fear of World Junior Relegation.

Once our kids graduate high school, it's time to see who are the dedicated curlers. We already see it every year. Teams like the GNCC Junior Men's schedule their education around curling. Some juniors move to the midwest in order to play more and play on great teams. These are not new. It goes way, way back. I can cite examples for the 1970's of kids relocating for curling or scheduling their education around curling.

So with this new Juniors/U-18s blend, we keep the best of the past and evolve our competitiveness for the changing curling world.

I'm excited to see the new Bantams (I just can't tolerate U-18...too hard to type).

I fear the unexpected consequences for Junior Ladies. We lack the numbers to do both Juniors and Bantams, so most teams will have members who are doing both. Often the talented one is alone in a thin region. We need to find her and encourage her.

Ben Tucker

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04-08-16 10:57AM
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mr. lucky
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U-14 Anyone?

The answer to thin numbers is a U-14 State play down too. This can be a open event ( Boys and Girls same team).

We know that clubs are chock full of little rockers, sliding through cups. We loose them at age 13 to other sports because they get sick of sliding through cups.

Give them a place to compete too. I think we would keep some for moving to other sports if they were able to complete and have some success at that age.

If there will be State U-18 championships that lead to Nationals, why wouldn't the States include a U-14 that weekend too.

U-14 curling isn't pretty, but it's great fun. Anything can happen, and does.

Last edited by mr. lucky on 04-08-16 at 11:05AM

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04-08-16 12:04PM
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IMWright
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The one concern I have going to regions is that it will have a consequence of consolidating the junior teams to being developed and from a certain area (Wisconsin or Minnesota, maybe one place out east, and one out west). For example, the GLCA is not typically known as a "powerhouse" of Junior Curling teams, but in the last five years, have developed a solid (and growing) junior program. One of the GLCA juniors was on the silver medal winning club nationals men's team last year, and this year jumped onto a pretty solid Washington Junior Team.

I'm sure other regions have other similar circumstances in terms of growing junior programs. So juniors that don't come from the "right" area (Wisconsin, or Minnesota), will be at a huge disadvantage and not get more experience.

Also, the travelling that will be required for the juniors to go to a regional event (if it's just "east" and "west") would be quite substantial, if for example you live in Wisconsin and the "east" region is held in New York. (Not exactly sure what the regions would be). I feel bad for Alaska, in this case...

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04-08-16 12:11PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Yeah.

I get consolidation...the regions weren't cutting it.

But I think 2 is too few. I suggest 4:

GNCC/East Coast
WI/MI/OH
MN/Upper Midwest
CA/South

Where some states go is fudgible (Seattle...could be West, could be MN/Midwest)...

That should keep folks from having to travel *too* far *every* year (yeah, Alaska is going to be nailed the year Region "4" is in Texas, but hopefully the next year it's in Seattle, for example), and should also make the Regionals more competitive.

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04-08-16 12:16PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

Re: U-14 Anyone?

quote:
Originally posted by mr. lucky
The answer to thin numbers is a U-14 State play down too. This can be a open event ( Boys and Girls same team).

We know that clubs are chock full of little rockers, sliding through cups. We loose them at age 13 to other sports because they get sick of sliding through cups.

Give them a place to compete too. I think we would keep some for moving to other sports if they were able to complete and have some success at that age.

If there will be State U-18 championships that lead to Nationals, why wouldn't the States include a U-14 that weekend too.

U-14 curling isn't pretty, but it's great fun. Anything can happen, and does.



To be honest, I think this is unnecessary. Most kids that young aren't ready for a structured national championship path. They are better served by club junior programs elevating their game and particularly having clubs collaborate with nearby clubs to arrange scrimmages and more junior bonspiels. We have created a Facebook group to facilitate this is the upper midwest and I would happily expand it or suggest that other regions follow suit. The group is new and not yet very active, but I anticipate it will become a good resource. The group can be found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/juniorcurling/

For those kids that are serious enough about the game the U-18 is perfect. I have a very serious, very competitive 13-year-old. His team of middle schoolers played in the Minnesota junior playdowns this year and it was a great experience. They got seriously beat up most games but did manage to win a game and were very competitive in their final game against the undefeated champions losing only when they ran out of rocks in the 10th end.

But it was definitely eye-opening to have to play against college kids and having a separate U-18 championship (and Tuck, I'm fine with that name, no self-respecting teenager wants be called a "bantam") would give serious young teams a chance to actually win something instead of just playing for experience.

Having said that, I hope they don't put some sort of minimum age on the actual juniors. I can easily see teams of 16 and 17 year olds who could be competitive at the junior level and who would greatly benefit from that experience as well as the U-18. It's like juniors playing in men's and women's events - good competition can only make you better, and learning how to lose is good for you.

As you can tell, I'm really excited about these proposed changes and am really hoping they become a reality.

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04-08-16 12:31PM
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hurryhard
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: Kelowna BC
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Thumbs up Response to Juniors

It is basically the same in Canada as well. They start at the club level go to regional, then provincials and finally the nationals. Yes some teams are composed of curlers from other cities but developing Juniors does struggle especially in small cities and towns so the only way to put a team together is look around at others. Canada face's the same opposition as the USA does. Other countries build purpose built teams and that does make it harder as they are put tint the elite into one team and building a purpose built team for the future too compete at the National and world level.

I think we in both Canada and the USA have too look at funding for our youth/university curlers and make sure they get good coaching at the levels. Developing a solid base of new curlers for the future of the sport.

And yes I am familiar with the USA system as I curled in the USA for 5 years while I went to University.

Hurryhard

Last edited by hurryhard on 04-09-16 at 11:59AM

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04-08-16 12:35PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
Posts: 20

quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
Also, the travelling that will be required for the juniors to go to a regional event (if it's just "east" and "west") would be quite substantial, if for example you live in Wisconsin and the "east" region is held in New York. (Not exactly sure what the regions would be). I feel bad for Alaska, in this case...


Agree with this completely. I could definitely discourage teams who don't think they have a legitimate shot of making nationals from participating. And if they do make nationals they have the potential of needing to fly across the county two times.

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04-08-16 03:42PM
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rbi
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The key with USA juniors is to have lots and lots of kids participating in the sport. Adding U-18 competition should help, it gives a new prize to shoot for, a new playground to play on. Not sure whether USCA has the resources to take on management of yet another national competition, and I dread seeing the entry fee that will be charged for the U-18 playdowns, but still, it's a new playground to play on.

But I would really like to see some sort of national program for kids, taking them from beginner all the way up to that point (at age 17 or so) when a few decide to go "high performance" and devote a big part of their life to elite curling.

US Tennis and other sports have such programs, it would be great to see US Curling build something similar. For reference, see https://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/

Tennis is a much larger sport with more resources, but still, there are many good ideas there that could/should be adopted into a nationwide curling program for growing and strengthening the sport at the youth level.

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04-08-16 03:57PM
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mr. lucky
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quote:
Originally posted by rbi
The key with USA juniors is to have lots and lots of kids participating in the sport. Adding U-18 competition should help, it gives a new prize to shoot for, a new playground to play on. Not sure whether USCA has the resources to take on management of yet another national competition, and I dread seeing the entry fee that will be charged for the U-18 playdowns, but still, it's a new playground to play on.

But I would really like to see some sort of national program for kids, taking them from beginner all the way up to that point (at age 17 or so) when a few decide to go "high performance" and devote a big part of their life to elite curling.

US Tennis and other sports have such programs, it would be great to see US Curling build something similar. For reference, see https://www.usta.com/Youth-Tennis/

Tennis is a much larger sport with more resources, but still, there are many good ideas there that could/should be adopted into a nationwide curling program for growing and strengthening the sport at the youth level.



Agreed!
That's what I like about a U-14. It doesn't have to come from the USCA, although it would be nice. States can do this on their own.

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04-08-16 04:20PM
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tuck
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I think the future has all of our best Junior, Men's and Women's teams centrally located. I think other nations have this and use it to their great benefit.

I think the future will be focused on self-formed teams.

I think that the future will have coaches serving the team and NOT the team serving the coach.

I think that the more successful teams practice together. It's a big edge. Brady and Face use it. Central location will be key.

I think that having a friendly coach on the ice working for you while you throw practice rocks is 5 times better than throwing practice rocks by yourself.

I think video remains grotesquely underused.

Ben Tucker (rambling...glad for active threads)

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04-08-16 09:38PM
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rbi
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The central teams approach make sense. A curler could compete from beginner through U-18 from their hometown and then, if they are talented and decide to take curling very seriously, they move to the Twin Cities (or Wausau or someplace) at age 18 and train to be elite for the next 10-20 years while going to school, starting a career, etc. They would have access to the best facilities, best coaching, best teammates, best competition.

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04-11-16 01:59PM
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AlanMacNeill
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Except that since the vast majority of our nation's population *isn't* centrally located, the logic says it's likely that our best curlers *aren't* going to come from WI/MN.

It makes more logical sense to put the "Central" location in the Northeast...that's where most of the people are...math says so.

It's also far easier and cheaper for a team based there to travel...$100 airfare vs $500 airfare...

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04-11-16 02:26PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Except that since the vast majority of our nation's population *isn't* centrally located, the logic says it's likely that our best curlers *aren't* going to come from WI/MN.

It makes more logical sense to put the "Central" location in the Northeast...that's where most of the people are...math says so.

It's also far easier and cheaper for a team based there to travel...$100 airfare vs $500 airfare...



But history and reality says that they "are" going to come from the Minnesota/Wisconsin upper midwest area because that's where more curlers are. It's like saying the US ski team should be located in Brooklyn. or Nascar should be based in Los Angeles. You're not talking about overall population, but population of those most likely to choose curling as their main sport.

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04-11-16 03:20PM
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> Northeast

Sure, "central" could be anywhere.

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04-11-16 10:04PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck

... World Juniors as well. Other nations are continuing and expanding their fiscal support of Juniors to allow them to focus their lives on curling. This will only increase in the near future.

So our Juniors have been facing well-funded teams at Worlds for a few years now. We just haven't chosen to give it much thought. It's hard to compete against semi-pros without selling your soul. We should not sell our soul. Ever...but especially for Juniors. It's Juniors. It's not the Olympics. Let's not live in fear of World Junior Relegation.

Once our kids graduate high school, it's time to see who are the dedicated curlers. We already see it every year. Teams like the ...

Ben Tucker



Tuck,

What lessons do you see from the success of the Japanese men and women at worlds this year? Men's team from Karuisawa and women's team from far north in Kitigama. The current Japanese emphasis on skills for the juniors more than even tournaments...

I wonder what U-18 teens and their families would think of staying closer to home until they graduate high school, or are invited to a Junior team or form one themselves. For serious U-18 competitors there could be something non-WCF-sanctioned like Arena nationals for U-18 which now varies year to year from signup-and-go to state/regional playdowns.

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05-02-16 12:27PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
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High Performance Junior Playdowns

With the east/west play down format to qualify for Junior Nationals, and the HP team playing down as well, does the HP team play in east or west?

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05-02-16 12:33PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2014
Location: Eau Claire Wisconsin
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Good question. I also see that the Minnesota State playdowns have been posted on the USCA site, so I wonder if that means the changes won't be happening this year.

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05-03-16 10:16PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by jtphoto2020
Good question. I also see that the Minnesota State playdowns have been posted on the USCA site, so I wonder if that means the changes won't be happening this year.


Guessing we should not read too much into this. MCA has to plan based on current procedures -- easier to cancel a championship than to try to fit one into a schedule later in the year.

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05-04-16 08:21AM
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Yep, probably that. Potomac was tabbed to host the GNCC playdowns this coming December back a few months ago...we're now wondering if that's still happening or not.

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05-06-16 06:58PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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I wonder what athletes were invited to the combine. I suppose the only way to know is after the combine and selection process are concluded. I hope to see two (four?) teams that will lead USA Curling to gold. Hard to say what athletes they are, it must be difficult to make the decision on the selection team.

I also wonder if they will stack one HP team known as the "A" team, or if they plan to balance the skill sets of both HP teams and leave it to the national tournament to decide who goes to worlds. In the case they have two teams for boys and girls.

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05-24-16 04:12PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
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Athlete Selections

Has anyone heard anything about when the HPP athlete selections will be released? The combine is now concluded. Are they just going to leave us followers eagerly waiting all summer? Or do they make a press release within a few days?

In addition, do they ever release who took part at the combine?

Thanks

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05-24-16 07:53PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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As far as those who were invited to the combine I don't know many but this is what i have heard about the junior mens side (read: I don't know for a fact).

-majority of the Clawson rink (silver medalists at Juniors this year)
-Ben Richardson (junior WA team that got fourth at nationals and second on the YOG team who won silver)
-Nick Connolly(skip of junior WA team)
-Luc Violette (bronze at juniors, silver at YOG)
-Andrew Stopera (bronze at juniors and former HPPer)
-One of the younger fenson boys (younger but had a good showing at juniors this year)

the list may or may not be complete but this is what I've heard through the grape vine

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05-25-16 02:23AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Mar 2016
Location: Bay City, Michigan
Posts: 58

What you have heard does not surprise me. In fact, I think the said boys would make for two solid teams.

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05-26-16 03:29PM
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Registered: May 2016
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HP Selections

Still no news from the combine. Must have had tough decisions this year. We are so anxiously waiting!

They have to select eight boys. And at least six girls, I can't imagine not having Bear or McMakin because they're the only girls with HP experience.

I have heard the Clawson rink was at the combine. Anyone hear about other GNCC kids at the combine?

Going to miss having GNCC teams to root for now without the regional play at junior nationals. Good news is I will still have the U18 nationals.

Would be so cool for a U18 worlds to follow soon.

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Curling Scores

M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 6 -- Mon, Mar 18 -- 7:00pm AT
Gagn/Mori Final
Rees/Ches (EE)
Sand/Crai Final
Gamb/Kalt (8)
Arms/Grif Final
Pete/Gall (7) Watch Live Curling!
Zhen/Piet Final
Gion/Desj (7)
Wasy/Koni Final
Jone/Lain (EE)
Wise/Smit 12  Final
Weag/Eppi (6)
Lott/Lott 12  Final
Bouc/Char (7)
Krev/Math Final
Whit/Whit (6)
M: Aberdeen International Curling Championship
Aberdeen, SCO
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 2:45pm GMT
Mouat Final
Shuster (7)
D: WCT Slovakia Mixed Doubles Cup II
Bratislava, SVK
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 12:00pm CET
Han/Zou Final
Paul/Paul (7)
Cihl/Mace Final
Yang/Tian 10  (6)
: NWTCA Mixed
Yellowknife, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 4 -- Sun, Mar 17 -- 10:00am MT
Delorey Final
Koe (5)
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Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Canadian mixed doubles championship starts in Fredericton on Sunday

Marlee Powers and Luke Saunders of Halifax, Nova Scotia won 6-5 over Papley/van Amsterdam in the opening draw streamed on Curling Canada's Plus platform.

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