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| 10-28-16 05:50PM |
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CURLogic
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Hill Valley
Posts: 13 |
My guess is this policy came about in response to several "situations", some being pointed out in this thread. Specifically the dbsdbs post regarding Chaska and youngens hypothetical that I am guessing really happened.
I support the policy.
I'd like to hear Jeff I's story of the facts related to Chaska, their use or non-use of USCA and related resources in the planning and development, their decision to not join the USCA, the timing of them being chosen to host the Collegiate games relative to their decision to not join the USCA, and the $$,$$$ benefit they recieved from the Ryder Cup exhibition. Be great to get his perspective on this topic.
__________________
McFly
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| 10-28-16 08:19PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc
A non-member club should not expect member club services for free, or for a fee except at the discretion of the organization. That's why there are member benefits, of course.
FYI, board members are uncompensated volunteers, and are bound by a conflict-of-interest policy. It would be highly unusual for a board member to have his/her professional associations outside board service restricted in any way beyond compliance with conflict-of-interest. I would not serve on a board that required such association restrictions.
Staff members are paid, and of course should comply with the terms of their employment contract, and conflict-of-interest. It is unusual for an employment contract to bar association with certain individuals or entities, except to the extent that it would violate conflict of interest.
Participating in a bonspiel, or offering solicited, uncompensated, friendly advice to a non-member organization, or even giving a talk or presentation (which might be an opportunity to recruit members) would not be the type of activity considered by most organizations as a conflict of interest. I would like to think in these situations, a board member or employee would take the initiative to encourage the non-member club to consider membership in order to gain access to certain benefits. If you don't reach out to non-members, they won't become members.
New clubs dont start without USCA help due to teh expense of rocks, etc. So if a club was once a member, and now stops being a member, I have no issue with shunning them.
I get it that board members are unpaid. And legally there must be a conflict of interest policy for non-profit organizations. But legally there 100% can be a behavior policy as well. This is just a type of bahavior. Plus no one forces you on teh board. Dont like it, dont join.
Furthermore, I think that as curling clubs who are 501c3 orgs, I believe that you only maintain that as a result of being a part of being a dues paying club. It gets a little grey, but if you read what is necessary to be tax exempt, it appears that this is only possible by being a dues paying club. If my reading of this is true, I would hope that non paying clubs lose their status.
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| 10-28-16 08:47PM |
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SkipsWhoSayNi
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: May 2015
Location:
Posts: 30 |
Maybe it's a millennial thing, but everyone pitching in to achieve a common goal is a pretty cool thing. I think it sucks that a club is trying to game the system.
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| 10-28-16 08:47PM |
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ChiefIceMinion
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2012
Location: In the crawlspace
Posts: 83 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
Furthermore, I think that as curling clubs who are 501c3 orgs, I believe that you only maintain that as a result of being a part of being a dues paying club. It gets a little grey, but if you read what is necessary to be tax exempt, it appears that this is only possible by being a dues paying club. If my reading of this is true, I would hope that non paying clubs lose their status.
A curling club that is a 501c3 organization meets the requirements by "fostering national or international amateur athletic sport competition" and one need not belong to an NGB or other such organization to do so.
Participation in bonspiels at other curling clubs or going to bonspiels in other countries is "amateur athletic sport competition", yes?
Chief Ice Minion
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| 10-29-16 12:33AM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
Participation in bonspiels at other curling clubs or going to bonspiels in other countries is "amateur athletic sport competition", yes?
Chief Ice Minion
"It was going to be a cold one, and this is the kind of thing that separates the amateurs of this sport from the true amateurs."
A quote from http://www.rutabagacurl.com/. 2015 Recap
Many of us "true amateurs" of curling need more some laughs on this thread.
Last edited by Alice on 10-29-16 at 12:42AM
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| 10-29-16 10:59AM |
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TJNCJ
Swing Artist
Registered: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 209 |
"Underreporting" in Wisconsin occurred when I was on the board but was not widespread but occurred at different rates. Some was blatant but most paid the majority of the dues.
I believe there is currently only one club that is not a USCA member and I imagine this proclamation means nothing to them and will not affect them in the least. Membership is solid, bonspiel are full and they can use that $3000 to keep the club up to date and dues affordable.
If the benefits of being a USCA member do not outweigh the cost I do not blame them and will continue to support them.
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| 10-29-16 11:08PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
New clubs dont start without USCA help due to teh expense of rocks, etc. So if a club was once a member, and now stops being a member, I have no issue with shunning them.
I get it that board members are unpaid. And legally there must be a conflict of interest policy for non-profit organizations. But legally there 100% can be a behavior policy as well. This is just a type of bahavior. Plus no one forces you on teh board. Dont like it, dont join.
Furthermore, I think that as curling clubs who are 501c3 orgs, I believe that you only maintain that as a result of being a part of being a dues paying club. It gets a little grey, but if you read what is necessary to be tax exempt, it appears that this is only possible by being a dues paying club. If my reading of this is true, I would hope that non paying clubs lose their status.
There is to my knowledge no requirement for 501c3 status to be a dues paying member of any particular organization.
The USCA has every right to deny services to non-member organizations. It is not, in my opinion, ethically defensible to restrict non-organizational association of board members, not representing a clear conflict of interest, with non-member clubs. It is quite likely short-sighted and non productive.
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| 10-29-16 11:09PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by ChiefIceMinion
A curling club that is a 501c3 organization meets the requirements by "fostering national or international amateur athletic sport competition" and one need not belong to an NGB or other such organization to do so.
Participation in bonspiels at other curling clubs or going to bonspiels in other countries is "amateur athletic sport competition", yes?
Chief Ice Minion
I am very familiar with that wording, no need to quote it. But the key to that quote is national or international. I am not certain if a regular bonspiels meets those requirements. I was under the impression that the exemption was basically given under the idea that people might get to an Olypics, World Championship, PanAm Games, etc. I might be wrong.
One other reason to be a dues paying club in many states (though not all) has to do with your clubs liquor license. A liquor license can be very expensive. However many states have discounted liquor licenses for fraternal organizations such as an American Legion, Elk's Club, etc. Dont pay dues, you are out of the organization and your liquor license can go up substantially in price
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| 10-30-16 12:26PM |
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birvin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 33 |
anybody know how other sports handle this? Is every member of every golf, tennis, soccer, cycling, archery, swimming, track-and-field, skating, skiing, snowboarding, fencing, etc. club required to belong to their NGB and pay dues to it?
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| 10-30-16 01:22PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by birvin
anybody know how other sports handle this? Is every member of every golf, tennis, soccer, cycling, archery, swimming, track-and-field, skating, skiing, snowboarding, fencing, etc. club required to belong to their NGB and pay dues to it?
Curling may be a bit unusual in that the regional associations are independent entities that offer independent benefits for members. For example, in tennis, the sectional associations work under the umbrella of the USTA. Dues are paid directly to the USTA, and a portion of those dues, determined by a schedule, is returned to the sectional associations. Clubs and individuals can join USTA, but do not appear to be compelled to do so. However, both clubs and individuals have tremendous incentives to be members in order to host or compete in USTA events. I don't play tennis, but my local tennis club dues do not require or include USTA dues. I assume that membership is optional.
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| 10-30-16 06:29PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
quote:
Originally posted by birvin
anybody know how other sports handle this? Is every member of every golf, tennis, soccer, cycling, archery, swimming, track-and-field, skating, skiing, snowboarding, fencing, etc. club required to belong to their NGB and pay dues to it?
The US Figure Skating Association which has the rights to select Team USA figure skaters for worlds and the Olympics is not welcome in many ice rinks with robust recreational and beginner programs because the Ice Skating Institute provides better programs and support for those activities compared to USFSA. ISI is essentially a trade group assisting rinks in their business operations. Most rink owners know they can't make a living only with the ice users wanting to compete outside their state or regional levels.
This resolution makes it seem the USCA fears a competitor organization springing up which might displace it as the recipient of most "national" dues or as selectors for Team USA if curling clubs are allowed to exist much less grow unless they formally join USCA.
As Princess Leia so famously said to her Dad, "The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."
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| 10-30-16 07:51PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote:
Originally posted by curlky
One other reason to be a dues paying club in many states (though not all) has to do with your clubs liquor license. A liquor license can be very expensive. However many states have discounted liquor licenses for fraternal organizations such as an American Legion, Elk's Club, etc. Dont pay dues, you are out of the organization and your liquor license can go up substantially in price
So now we are trying to justify USCA membership based on the possibility that a curling club MIGHT get a less expensive liquor license in SOME states. I think we need some better benefits...
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| 10-30-16 10:15PM |
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Curlrock
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 96 |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dbsdbs
So now we are trying to justify USCA membership based on the possibility that a curling club MIGHT get a less expensive liquor license in SOME states. I think we need some better benefits... [/QUOTE
Exactly. I have always accepted that the $4000-5000 my club pays for dues is pretty much a waste. Our club has personally never seen return even approaching that amount. Seventy five percent of our members likely don't realize they pay USCA/UCOC dues and wouldn't even know if we stopped paying them. We have some members that playdown, so the thought of not paying them is not brought up any more. In principle, I don't have a problem supporting a national organization of curling. Unfortunately this proposition, right or wrong, reinforces the bad PR the USCA/USOC has with the club curler.
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| 10-31-16 12:07AM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
So now we are trying to justify USCA membership based on the possibility that a curling club MIGHT get a less expensive liquor license in SOME states. I think we need some better benefits...
I am not going to take the time to look up the liquor license for all 50 states, and then any special rules for each city. However, in a brief looking this savings might be as much as a couple thousand dollars. This is a good benefit for many, and about what dues actually cost. So dont just dismiss this one rigth away without research for yoru area.
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| 10-31-16 12:25PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
I'm not sure how this subject got sidetracked to liquor licenses, 501c3 organizations, etc. (I do know how, but I'm trying to be nice) but that has nothing to do with this policy and why it is wrong.
The powers that be seem to have come out with this over reaching policy to handle one, maybe two situations that have come up and in the processing of doing so cut off all non-member clubs and greatly diminished chances they may rejoin in the future.
It also seems as this may be pointed at one or two members of their own organization that are rebelling by supporting non-USCA clubs?
I think they need to figure out why these clubs are not members, why they see no value in joining or have left the organization.
With the current feeling towards the USCA/USOC by the average curler I think this is a bad strategy.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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| 10-31-16 12:45PM |
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 140 |
The US curlers who post on or follow CZ may have opinions and feelings towards the USCA/USOC, but I don't think the average curler does.
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| 10-31-16 12:52PM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote:
Originally posted by MCC_PE
The US curlers who post on or follow CZ may have opinions and feelings towards the USCA/USOC, but I don't think the average curler does.
I can guarantee you that many Wisconsin curlers have an opinion besides the 3 or 4 who post here.
This proclamation has had a bit of discussion already in my part of the country.
As has the value of our membership.
__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill
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| 10-31-16 01:56PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
I can guarantee you that many Wisconsin curlers have an opinion besides the 3 or 4 who post here.
This proclamation has had a bit of discussion already in my part of the country.
As has the value of our membership.
I agree. I strongly support our club membership in both our regional association and the USCA. However, I have conversations every year with club members defending the expenditure of more than 10% of each member's dues for on-ice insurance, regional dues, and USCA dues. Our regional association provides more tangible, direct benefits to the majority of our adult members than the USCA, and therein lies the rub.
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| 10-31-16 06:37PM |
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gonzobob
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Apr 2013
Location: Brooklyn Park, MN
Posts: 33 |
quote:
Originally posted by birvin
anybody know how other sports handle this? Is every member of every golf, tennis, soccer, cycling, archery, swimming, track-and-field, skating, skiing, snowboarding, fencing, etc. club required to belong to their NGB and pay dues to it?
For triathlon, the NGB is USA Triathlon (USAT). But not all triathlons in the USA are sanctioned by USAT. Generally, if a race is USAT sanctioned, you must either be a member of USAT or pay an extra race fee (roughly $10) which can be applied toward membership if you later become a member. However, there are a few high profile events that require USAT membership. These are the national championships, and perhaps other events actually produced by USAT. USAT members are not prevented from racing in non-sanctioned races. Sanctioned races get their event insurance through USAT, as well as conforming to the standards set by USAT for producing an event.
Triathlon clubs can choose to be an "Official USAT" club for a flat $50 fee. All individual members of official clubs must be USAT members. The main advantages of being an official club are: able to apply for club grant funds, race fee discounts at certain races, club listing on USAT website, club focus group sessions, eligible for club nationals, and a few others. Some of the biggest triathlon clubs in my area are not "official USAT" clubs but there are many smaller ones that are.
Last edited by gonzobob on 10-31-16 at 07:04PM
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| 10-31-16 07:21PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
I can guarantee you that many Wisconsin curlers have an opinion besides the 3 or 4 who post here.
This proclamation has had a bit of discussion already in my part of the country.
As has the value of our membership.
Ditto for Minnesota. And this action by USCA is not helping with curlers' opinions of USCA and the what benefits they and their clubs get with USCA membership.
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| 10-31-16 10:52PM |
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Curlrock
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Feb 2011
Location:
Posts: 96 |
quote:
Originally posted by MCC_PE
The US curlers who post on or follow CZ may have opinions and feelings towards the USCA/USOC, but I don't think the average curler does.
That may be true, but the "average" curlers are the ones that don't know they are paying the dues and would easily be influenced by the posters on CZ.
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| 11-01-16 11:34AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
quote:
Originally posted by MCC_PE
The US curlers who post on or follow CZ may have opinions and feelings towards the USCA/USOC, but I don't think the average curler does.
So ignorance is bliss. Keep average curlers in the dark about where dues go and what they get in return, if anything.
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| 11-01-16 12:19PM |
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RockDoc
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 399 |
quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
So ignorance is bliss. Keep average curlers in the dark about where dues go and what they get in return, if anything.
There are a significant number of clubs that disclose the regional and national dues included in their membership fees, so at least for these clubs, members are not clueless about this cost. Again, these costs, including insurance, are around 10% or more of membership fees.
I would like to think that there is not an assumption that because most curlers don't hang out on CZ, or don't know how much their clubs are paying for regional and national dues, that these organizations can simply charge what they want without any blowback. I can assure you that curling club boards look at association dues every year when they plan their budgets--they have to. Association dues and insurance coverage is a large fraction of a curling club's budget, and gets close scrutiny. Belonging to regional and national associations is the right thing to do, but this decision may be more difficult to justify if the costs become impractical to bear, or the benefits are not perceived to be sufficient. For any organization to rely on a compulsory fee model is potentially problematic, especially if the direct benefits are hard to perceive for the majority of those paying dues.
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| 11-01-16 02:17PM |
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SillyRock
Knee-Slider
Registered: Mar 2015
Location:
Posts: 9 |
Pretty new to the fray, but....
I'm pretty new to this but I know that our club wouldn't exist without the USCA. Nearly all of our members came to the sport because they saw it on TV in the Olympics and more recently some have come from seeing it on Curling Night in America. I don't see how any club can say they don't benefit from the awareness that TV has created for the sport. I know that in the past some have said that Curling would be there with or without the US being present. I just don't agree. NBC has proven that they are heavily invested in the sport. To me this is the primary thing that the USCA does for all of us and they get little credit for it. Someone has to manage the NGB and it's relationships with the media, WCF, and Olympic bodies in order to keep the sport relevant and in the public eye.
I may not agree with the wording or the method chosen to communicate these resolutions but I think the intent is correct. It's too bad that everyone looks at this from a selfish standpoint. Don't we all benefit from having more curlers (nearly double in the last decade) and more clubs? I've seen teams at our bonspiels from Texas, Missouri, California, Nebraska, etc. As indirect as this may be I really think it's the point they are trying to make.
USA Curling and by association Team USA are attractive brands that bring credibility to the sport. I think what the resolution meant to say was that if you want access to those brands you need to be members. If not, that's fine but don't expect to support from the organization when you want to tap into those brands. Furthermore, don't expect to see staff / athletes supporting your facility or events under those brands.
It will be interesting to see how many of the 19 non-member clubs in question are running events and growth oriented programs in the first quarter of 2018. Seems a little like having your cake and eating it too!
Again, it could have been handled much better but I, for one, support both resolutions.
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| 11-01-16 04:17PM |
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Alice
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2012
Location:
Posts: 324 |
Re: Pretty new to the fray, but....
quote:
Originally posted by SillyRock
I'm pretty new to this but I know that our club wouldn't exist without the USCA.....
...It will be interesting to see how many of the 19 non-member clubs in question are running events and growth oriented programs in the first quarter of 2018. Seems a little like having your cake...
Do tell: who is on your list of 19?
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