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04-21-15 12:47PM
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AlanMacNeill
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So who got invites to the combine?

Allegedly (per USCA Facebook...) 26 athletes got invited to the combine, out of 93 applicants.

The folks currently in the program did not need to reapply, so I assume nobody currently *in* the program is in that group of 26.

So...who is?

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04-21-15 01:17PM
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I did!


But it was to empty the trash cans and sweep the floors every night.

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Co-host of the NerdCurl podcast & occasional blogger.

http://www.nerdcurl.com

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04-21-15 04:15PM
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In the press release, it said

"USA Curling achieved five of seven annual milestones as set by the United States Olympic Committee for the 2014-15 HPP, including the fifth-place finish at the 2015 World Men's Championship."

Anyone know what those 5 milestones were? and what the other 2 were?

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04-21-15 04:46PM
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5 of 7 USOC Milestones

Perhaps more interestingly, how many of those 5 milestones were achieved by the HPP?

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04-21-15 05:58PM
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Saw on the USCA website Pete Fenson is returning to competitive play. Since he was "in" the HP program as a coach, does he have to do the combine?

Also saw the news this week about the new German program. Winning on the ice in the German national championship or any international spiels is now virtually irrelevant. Only those pre-selected for the national team, willing to relocate and work with the Fussen national staff, and pass all sorts of off-ice tests can be selected for worlds or Olymipics.

Finally read Russ Howard's bio. Maybe Fenson at age 47 is thinking he can do in Korea what Russ Howard at age 50 did in Torino with assistance from the US national program which seems to be morphing to the smaller-pool German model given how few got got invites to our combine. I doubt Russ Howard would have been invited to a combine in 2005 if Canada had one then with our new Young, Fit, and TV Pretty criteria plus being malleable to any USOC contract changes.

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04-21-15 09:57PM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
In the press release, it said

"USA Curling achieved five of seven annual milestones as set by the United States Olympic Committee for the 2014-15 HPP, including the fifth-place finish at the 2015 World Men's Championship."

Anyone know what those 5 milestones were? and what the other 2 were?



All I know is the HPP really needs to be sure it's not breaking it's arm while patting itself on the back for Shuster's performance...given that the HPP did *ZILCH* for him the entire season...

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04-21-15 10:43PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
Saw on the USCA website Pete Fenson is returning to competitive play. Since he was "in" the HP program as a coach, does he have to do the combine?

Also saw the news this week about the new German program. Winning on the ice in the German national championship or any international spiels is now virtually irrelevant. Only those pre-selected for the national team, willing to relocate and work with the Fussen national staff, and pass all sorts of off-ice tests can be selected for worlds or Olymipics.

Finally read Russ Howard's bio. Maybe Fenson at age 47 is thinking he can do in Korea what Russ Howard at age 50 did in Torino with assistance from the US national program which seems to be morphing to the smaller-pool German model given how few got got invites to our combine. I doubt Russ Howard would have been invited to a combine in 2005 if Canada had one then with our new Young, Fit, and TV Pretty criteria plus being malleable to any USOC contract changes.



well pete didnt stay retired for long. wonder if he will try and build an all new team with some young guys. at 47 thats probably the smartest move

as far as germany goes...well, at least they care. when they pulled what they did earlier this year i assumed they had all but given up and just accepted things. so i guess this means the end for andrea, its probably their way of forcing her into retirement. i dont doubt they want someone new. so there will be an allstar team assembled of sorts.i hope they get back because they have a good past and its unfortunate to see how far they have fallen

the question is how many athletes will want to go through all those new steps and what the off ice tests even are.

its unfortunate in a way. andrea really deserves to retire on her own terms after all she has done for curling in germany

Last edited by misty1 on 04-21-15 at 10:47PM

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04-21-15 11:36PM
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I'm not among those who got invited. Last year I at least was put on the wait list....this year, nothing more than "It has been decided that we will not offer you a spot in the Combine this year."

It seems to me that the only real relevance to them is recent success at men's or women's nationals/worlds. Anything and everything else is irrelevant. So be it. I will do things my own way.

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04-22-15 01:23AM
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I'm also curious about which two athletes currently in the program opted to not re-apply. Has that information come out anywhere?

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04-22-15 08:16AM
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J Zezel has opted out is what I've heard through the grapevine.

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04-22-15 09:53AM
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


All I know is the HPP really needs to be sure it's not breaking it's arm while patting itself on the back for Shuster's performance...given that the HPP did *ZILCH* for him the entire season...



From the sound of that press release, saying that it includes getting 5th at worlds, it seems the USCA is taking credit for that... What a joke...

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04-22-15 09:58AM
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I'm so very curious to know...

Did Shuster and team apply to the HPP...and if so, did they get any of the combine slots?

Or actually, for that matter, since as National Champion they were *forced* to join the HPP between Nationals and worlds (primarily so they could force a 5th on them and subject them to their coaching...I don't believe thye got any actual, you know, funding, other than expenses to go to Worlds)...do they qualify as one of the "players already in the program, so exempt from the combine"

And if not...I really gotta wonder wtf they're thinking...you'd think that the DEFENDING NATIONAL CHAMPION might maybe, just maybe, be one of the better teams our nation has...

Nahh...you're right...silly me...

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04-22-15 10:30AM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


well pete didnt stay retired for long. wonder if he will try and build an all new team with some young guys. at 47 thats probably the smartest move.



According to the article I read he will be trying out for a spot in the HPP.

quote:
Fenson, 47, plans to be considered along with the 92 other applicants for the 2015-16 USA Curling High Performance Program.


I imagine that they'll find a way for him to make the cut. Who's going to lose their spot from the 2014-15 HPP though? Is Shoostie one of the applicants, or is he firmly flipping the bird at the USCA?

quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
It seems to me that the only real relevance to them is recent success at men's or women's nationals/worlds. Anything and everything else is irrelevant. So be it. I will do things my own way.


Which, IMHO, is kind of a dumb way to do things. We generally know what the top curlers who have played at that level can do. There's video evidence and statistics for guys like Shuster and Craig Brown. The combine should be looking to evaluate folks who are more "unknown" to try them out, get an idea of where they are as curlers, and then see if you can build a team with them. Last year's invites were a bunch of people we've all heard of and seen competing at Nationals regularly.

Although, it's probably worth it to give Fenson a combine workout, just to make sure he didn't get rusty in his year off.

Last edited by brianewart on 04-22-15 at 10:38AM

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04-22-15 05:20PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
I'm not among those who got invited. Last year I at least was put on the wait list....this year, nothing more than "It has been decided that we will not offer you a spot in the Combine this year."

It seems to me that the only real relevance to them is recent success at men's or women's nationals/worlds. Anything and everything else is irrelevant. So be it. I will do things my own way.



Well, this is perceived as the best way to obtain short-term results: by reshuffling the current furniture into another configuration. Only it's not likely to make more than a marginal difference. And that's assuming you don't break team dynamics in the process of shuffling existing talent. We've been around the block on this discussion before.

The long-term way to build success is of course to bring in new talent at the club and regional level and then refine it with coaching and instruction and culling it with real in-game competition. The larger a pool of talent you cultivate the bigger the payoff. It's kind of like finding the best peppers in the produce bin. You can look at 8 peppers and rearrange them all you want, but they are basically what they are. If you want better peppers, paw through a bigger bin. Biologists will understand the principle of obtaining excellence from diversity. Instead of trying to "preselect" the best talent in a combine, you let the talent select itself from pools of lower level competition. But, alas, this takes at least a LITTLE time and some organisational depth to recruit and train competitors.

Cheers.

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04-28-15 02:06PM
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Found the milestones on USCA website (shown below)...

Anyone care to decipher the wording for the Grand Slam and WCT milestones? Is the milestone just having "3 wins at a Grand Slam event" and "4 wins at a WCT event", or are the wins referring to winning the whole event, which if the latter is the case, which ones were won? If it's the former, is it really a milestone to have won a few games at these events (and not win the whole thing)? 4 of 7 milestones are related to that, so to say 5 of 7 milestones were achieved doesn't seem as monumental.

Oh, and then the other milestone that was achieved was by a non-HP team (but that's not mentioned in the summary)

---

USOC Milestones Summary for 2014-15 season:

Women

World Championships Top 6, Milestone not achieved

Grand Slam Events at least 3 wins, achieved 3 times by Womens HP teams, Milestone achieved

WCT Events at least 4 wins, achieved 5 times by Womens HP teams, Milestone achieved

Men

World Championships Top 8, Milestone achieved

Grand Slam Events at least 3 wins, achieved once by Mens HP team, Milestone achieved

WCT Events at least 4 wins, achieved 5 times by Mens HP teams, Milestone achieved

Combined

Order of Merit 2 teams in the top 18, not achieved Womens Teams at 23 and 24, Mens Teams at 21,24 and 25

Overal Milestones 5 achieved, 2 not achieved

----

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04-28-15 02:32PM
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Note how they are more than happy to claim Shuster when it benefits them (Top 8 at Worlds, and 24th ranked in the world)...

Damned near fraudulent.

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04-28-15 06:28PM
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The milestones must mean 3 wins by 1 team at a single Grand Slam event, and 4 for a team at a WCT event. Not written very well. They do clearly say if a milestone was met by an HP team.

Not very ambitious goals in my opinion. I would also think the goals should be specific to the HP teams AND coaches since that's where the funding is going.

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04-29-15 09:26AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MNIceman
The milestones must mean 3 wins by 1 team at a single Grand Slam event, and 4 for a team at a WCT event. Not written very well. They do clearly say if a milestone was met by an HP team.

Not very ambitious goals in my opinion. I would also think the goals should be specific to the HP teams AND coaches since that's where the funding is going.



When were these milestone goals written, at the end of the season?

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04-29-15 09:54AM
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Nope...that one at least isn't USCA's fault...

The USOC sets out goals for every NGB at the beginning of each competitive season (well, actually, I think they do it per calendar year, but it's understood to be intended to work on competitive season).

It's yet another way that the entire "Olympic System" is broken. the Olympics aren't *supposed* to be *just* about winning medals, it's supposed to be about growing sports and gathering youth and inspiring nations and etc, etc, etc...

But you'll note that not one of those goals said anything about "support 5 new curling centers to open across the country" or "develop a program to provide education in curling as part of school's physcial education program"...they all are just "compete and win".

Coubertin is spinning in his grave.

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04-29-15 12:08PM
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Interestingly, these are all outcome goals, not process goals. Unfortunately, that's probably how the USOC wants it. The problem is this: to improve athletic performance, you have to concentrate on process goals: e.g., increasing percentage of shots made, and reducing icing, shot-making, and strategic errors. Teams cannot control wins and losses: they can only control how well they play. Winning and losing is a proxy for performance, but depends on not only team performance but the caliber of the competition. NCAA and professional sports coaches know this. To really know if we are making progress (and if the coaches are having a measurable effect) we need to be keeping good, useful statistics on team performance. Maybe we are doing this; maybe not. Wins and losses may be a proxy for improvement, but they won't tell you why, or where you need to put your coaching/training efforts.

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04-29-15 01:12PM
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quote:
Originally posted by RockDoc
Interestingly, these are all outcome goals, not process goals. Unfortunately, that's probably how the USOC wants it. The problem is this: to improve athletic performance, you have to concentrate on process goals: e.g., increasing percentage of shots made, and reducing icing, shot-making, and strategic errors. Teams cannot control wins and losses: they can only control how well they play. Winning and losing is a proxy for performance, but depends on not only team performance but the caliber of the competition. NCAA and professional sports coaches know this. To really know if we are making progress (and if the coaches are having a measurable effect) we need to be keeping good, useful statistics on team performance. Maybe we are doing this; maybe not. Wins and losses may be a proxy for improvement, but they won't tell you why, or where you need to put your coaching/training efforts.


In addition to goals for the atheletes, what are the goals for the HPP coaches? How is their success measured?

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04-29-15 02:36PM
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Here we go again....too silly

there is no way that the "milestones" were set for the entirety of usa curling, not just the hpp, is there? i mean it wouldn't make sense for the usoc to judge us on whoever makes it to worlds would it? of course not, just judge the "hand picked" few. why judge shuster's success....he wasn't part of the hpp so it has nothing to do with usa curling, right?

on the question of milestones...of course milestones are the exact same thing as goals. why would they be different?

i am absolutley sure that the hpp coaches were basically saying "just win". they wouldn't dare have other measures like shooting statistics and video for every last shot for every athlete in every game of every event. they wouldn't be video taping and reviewing tactial situations for every game. they wouldn't be measuring physical and mental training progress throughout the year. they wouldn't be lookign at what the teams that are on the podium are doing and trying to learn from them.

evaluation? really? why do that? they couldn't have an internal review and evaluation process by athletes, peers, and other staff. that would be just too much like a real organization.

said it before...this program is obviously just a big cover up. the coaches and staff really just want usa curling to fail while they collect a check. i mean have you met any of those people? no experience, no knowledge of the game, and not a one of them is passionate about what they do. you'd have to be crazy to think that they're just trying to do the best possible job for usa curling and the athletes and put us on the podium again and keep us there for years to come.

So silly I can barely keep typing.

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04-29-15 03:28PM
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Ha! The sarcasm runs deep within you Silly Rock.

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04-29-15 05:48PM
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What goals/metrics would everybody like to see?

I would like to see some more metrics and goals related to success in WCT events. For example, the total number of points earned in WCT events (to measure depth of talent) and number of teams in the top 20 (to measure peak talent).

Success in the grand slams seems like a dubious goal/metric until more USA teams qualify for the slams. WCT success/progress seems like a better metric because more USA teams play in WCT events.

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04-29-15 06:30PM
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For the *USCA*, nothing individual at all...they should be concerned with the overall health of the game (number of clubs, number of members, participation in playdowns, etc).

Now, those metrics were perfectly reasonable as tools to judge specific people in the HPP...if we're spending money on someone and they can't get into and do well at WCT stuff...well...maybe we need to be looking at someone else....but that's an *individual* measurement, not a *state of how well the NGB is doing" measurement

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Sydney, Canada - In front of a full house with over 4,000 spectators, Canada (photo: Stephen Fisher, World Curling) beat Switzerland by 7-5 to take gold at the BKT Tires World Women's Curling Championship 2024.

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