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01-28-17 06:57PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
Dang, CaptMorgan. I think you're the one coming across as a troll. Where exactly did Misty call the Brazilians "losers"?
Ben Tucker
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01-28-17 08:43PM |
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 900 |
I must have misinterpreted her post.
"I just wonder how long this is going to go on"
Not really a rousing endorsement.
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01-28-17 08:46PM |
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CaptMorgan
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 900 |
quote: Originally posted by misty1
I don't know that these games will ever go anywhere. I don't see Brazil ever defeating the united States in this challenge....
....eventually Brazil gets tired of losing all the time, gives up and this ends.
This is a warm and welcoming post?
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01-31-17 09:54AM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
I dunno, the 3rd US-Brazil Women's game looks like it got competitive at the end...too little too late, but that's progress.
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02-02-17 01:35PM |
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anneshibuya
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2017
Location:
Posts: 2 |
Hi Everyone,
I play lead on the Brazilian team and I am glad for all positive comments and even those negative comments just affect me positively.
We are all new, we curl for less than 5 years (the female team) and I know it looks silly engage such challenge, but this is only the beginning. Had one competitive game was a victory for us. This is a competition to lead us to be better and work hard. We do not have a curling program like the USA or funds but we have heart and we give it for the sport. We play curling because we love it and it is an honor to be the pioneers in our country.
You will keep seeing Brazil around. I will be on Lethbridge in April representing Brazil again on the Mixed Double worlds.
Thank you all for the support.
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02-02-17 01:48PM |
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IMWright
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 206 |
Conspiracy theory:
USCA HPP is happy to do the America's Challenge. It allows them to send their HPP teams to that and then have to preselect them to automatically go to US Mixed Doubles Nationals (without playing in the qualifier and risk not making it in). Because, "by golly, they were at another event that they had to play at to ensure the USA slot at world's and there wasn't another random weekend to do it, so it wouldn't be fair to not let them go to mixed doubles nationals." Essentially, America's Challenge allows the HPP to get their handpicked teams into Mixed Double Nationals...
---
Now conspiracy theories aside, it's within Brazil's right to keep challenging for that spot. More power to you all.
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02-02-17 02:36PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
The USCA/HPP already had Curling Night In America to fill that role. All great conspiracies have built-in redundancies, but they already had CNIA.
Ben Tucker
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02-02-17 02:56PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
Sometimes I wonder if the Brazilians would get more out of playing in the Asia-Pacific Championships, or the European Championships (A/B/C Groups).
Or maybe it's time to reorganize the groups and another group: Oceanic (Australia, New Zealand) and South America (Brazil for now). The winner gets to challenge the lowest seed team who has qualified for worlds (likely the lowest European team to qualify). I think it would actually develop the abilities of all these nations that much more.
It would require some logistical juggling to make it work though. And costs might be an issue (Team Brazil is based in Canada... easy for them to challenge the US or Canada).
It'll be interesting to see if they decide to challenge the Canada team when the US gets an automatic berth in Vegas next year, or how the WCF decides to make it work.
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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02-02-17 03:09PM |
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sussman
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2011
Location:
Posts: 26 |
IMHO it should be Europe and everyone else. Let's call it Asia-America. Europe gets 7 spots, Asia-America gets 5.
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02-02-17 04:54PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
For anyone who wants the numbers, there are 56 nations ranked by the WCF
Europe:40
Pacific-Asia: 10
Americas:6
Of those, 5 European, 1 Pacific Asia, and 3 Americas have zero points
10 teams make the Olympics.
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02-02-17 06:00PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
I don't mind challenge rounds to get to the show, but I think, for the development of curling, we need to shift from the strict "continental" model, at least for the Worlds.
(Olympics are a whole other issue.)
I think the 3rd/4th place Asian team is stronger, or at least as good as, the 7th/8th place European team. Why does Europe get 8 spots and Asia-Pacific only get 2?
This is where I would like to see a challenge round or two, and include Brazil into that mix (or any other nation that wants a spot from the Americas, not including the Canada/US as long as they meet a minimum performance standard).
There are lots of methods to make this work, but it will add some logistical and money issues.
Or... add a World 'B' Championships (as they do with juniors). See if there is support and again this would help the development of competitive curling.
Just a thought. The weakness of the current system is that Brazil (for example) gets one weekend of games that actually matter and then that's it. I think there needs to be more games that have actual meaning for a team and program to develop properly.
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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02-02-17 07:02PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
It's getting close to where they should consider a Davis Cup model.
There's a "World Group" (16 Teams), and a B Group (also 16, I believe), and down from there.
Every year, the 8 World Group teams that lose in the first round (they do a Knockout...so the model won't be perfect...) play off, and the 4 losers from that end up having to play against the 4 champions from the B group to remain in the World group the following year.
Yes, promotion and Relegation...and it isn't Continentally based (I think it is when you get down to the D level...but curling doesn't have as many active nations as tennis, so I doubt we go beyond B at this point)
They could easily do the same sort of thing in Curling. Top 12 teams play at Worlds...next 12 play a couple of weeks to a month beforehand at another site...the top 4 from there then get to playoff against the bottom 4 from Worlds for spots next year.
They could easily put those Playin games on the ice at Worlds, during the slack time around the Page Style playoffs....hell of a lot more interesting than a Bronze Medal game, IMO.
Gives nations 13-16 a taste of the limelight at Worlds, probably in front of the biggest crowds they have ever played in front of...makes the bottom 4 World teams sweat for their spot a little....it's a good thing.
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02-02-17 10:30PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
some kind of challenge or davis cup model makes lots of sense. and NO reason why USA should be exempt from qualifying via the challenge/playoff
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02-03-17 08:55AM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by dbsdbs
.... and NO reason why USA should be exempt from qualifying via the challenge/playoff
You may or may not already know this, but wanted to be clear for everyone reading this. USA is only exempt for 2018 worlds due to being the host nation, which is typical for almost any Olympic level sport.
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02-03-17 09:10AM |
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2668 |
Very good ideas. I agree about having more Asian teams...that is where the sport could really grow. Japan should be curling at the worlds this year not Italy. Some of these European teams are not very good yet get to go the worlds.
The WCF needs to take a look. B World Championships are a great idea. Maybe the region of Oceania can include Australia, NZ and any South American and Central American as well as Caribbean nations. Don't laugh at the Caribbean, lots of people from that area live in Canada and the US, if those kids are encouraged to curl, we just might see the Jamaican curling team at the Worlds one day.
__________________
Well Behaved Women Don't Make History.
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02-03-17 09:46AM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
The concept of a 'B' or Division I Worlds makes a lot of sense, as the number of potential nations grows.
The IIHF does this for hockey - 16 teams in championship group, 12 in Division I and 12 teams in Division II. (I think they even have a DIII if they need it), with an element of promotion/relegation.
Surely, this concept is better for the development of new curling nations than a challenge format where they have little chance of competing.
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02-03-17 12:18PM |
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Three
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 278 |
quote: Originally posted by nelsosi
The concept of a 'B' or Division I Worlds makes a lot of sense, as the number of potential nations grows.
The IIHF does this for hockey - 16 teams in championship group, 12 in Division I and 12 teams in Division II. (I think they even have a DIII if they need it), with an element of promotion/relegation.
Surely, this concept is better for the development of new curling nations than a challenge format where they have little chance of competing.
I strongly favour the IIHF way of doing things. One caveat is that there is no way for a country to go from the bottom to the top in one year. Right now Brazil (or any other weaker country) has a theoretical chance to go from the bottom to being a world champion in one season. Using the IIHF model a country can only go up one division a year. A hockey country can't make leaps and bounds in talent in one year anyways so this is more than fair. Curling is a little different. If we REALLY want to keep alive "any country could win this year" you have to schedule the tournaments from lowest to highest so the promoted country can go to the next division up.
Regardless, something has to change. Asia deserves at least another half slot and Brazil should compete against those they are more similar to in terms of talent. Geography should be thrown out the window.
FYI: world rankings for men's and women's curling actually do exist. Perhaps the World Curling Federation should put them to some use.
http://www.worldcurling.org/rankings-men-and-women
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02-03-17 01:09PM |
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curlky
Drawmaster
Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 559 |
quote: Originally posted by Three
and Brazil should compete against those they are more similar to in terms of talent. Geography should be thrown out the window.
Could not disagree more with competition based upon similar talent. Sports are a meritocracy, the best teams move forward, the worse teams dont. A team should not be allowed to get int a weaker pool to get a slot just to encourage more competitive play. I woudl be OK with lesser ranked teams playing in lesser tournaments to vie for spots in an A bracket to go to worlds or Olympics.
And as far as making a change, I would be shocked to see much happen. From a purely poltical perspective, Europe has the most teams, and therefore the most votes. What incentives do European nations have to give up slots at Worlds or Olympics to a different region. None, so I cant see change coming easily or soon.
Last edited by curlky on 02-03-17 at 02:00PM
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02-03-17 02:08PM |
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Three
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Posts: 278 |
quote: Originally posted by curlky
And as far as making a change, I would be shocked to see much happen. From a purely poltical perspective, Europe has the most teams, and therefore the most votes. What incentives do European nations have to give up slots at Worlds or Olympics to a different region. None, so I cant see change coming easily or soon.
The only thing certain is that change will come, sooner or later as it always does. When the Asian-Pacific championships started up in the early '90s....Europe lost one of their spots and Hugh Millikin got a yearly trip north of the equator. Europe did not get that spot back until 2005 (or so) when the World's went from 10 to 12 teams and gave a second spot to the Asian-Pacific championships.
It may be a decade or more from today but at some point it will change. Typically this comes by including "more teams"...like Canada will do next year for the Brier & Scotties (which I am totally against.)
If they went to two pools of 8 teams Europe would totally vote for it and water down the championship even more. Just look at how FIFA went to 48 teams for the 2026 World Cup. Change for better or worse is inevitable and often occurs in unforeseen ways that we can't currently even imagine.
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02-03-17 03:35PM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by Three
The only thing certain is that change will come, sooner or later as it always does. When the Asian-Pacific championships started up in the early '90s....Europe lost one of their spots and Hugh Millikin got a yearly trip north of the equator. Europe did not get that spot back until 2005 (or so) when the World's went from 10 to 12 teams and gave a second spot to the Asian-Pacific championships.
It may be a decade or more from today but at some point it will change. Typically this comes by including "more teams"...like Canada will do next year for the Brier & Scotties (which I am totally against.)
If they went to two pools of 8 teams Europe would totally vote for it and water down the championship even more. Just look at how FIFA went to 48 teams for the 2026 World Cup. Change for better or worse is inevitable and often occurs in unforeseen ways that we can't currently even imagine.
After seeing the pool system at the junior level (in Canada)... I'm ok with giving it a try at men's/women's events. The best teams will still wind up playing each other, and the second tier teams will still get meaningful games.
It's better than the current play-in format anyway. If we're going with teams from each province and territory, a pooled system is probably better than the alternatives.
(I'm not entirely convinced that giving everyone a spot is good idea either... but what criteria do you take spots away from associations? Yukon and the NWT have more curling clubs (and maybe curlers?) than PEI does... why should they lose a dedicated spot and PEI doesn't? Or maybe a minimum of teams from an association has to compete for the spot to be guaranteed one... who knows.)
But at the world level... well, they already do a pool system at certain events. So don't be surprised they think about it.
__________________
Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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02-04-17 10:16AM |
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist
Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268 |
quote: Originally posted by irvinm1
Is there a curling facility in Brazil?
No. Not even a club in a non-dedicated rink or so I've been led to believe.
Which I thought was a requirement for full WCF membership, but apparently not.
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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.
- Calvin (Calvin & Hobbs)
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