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01-04-15 06:54PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered


And I think we still won a few World Championships during that period.
You should qualify by winning games.



I agree with you.
If you win enough games the prior year to win provincials, you should be the only team with an auto berth.

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01-04-15 07:44PM
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OR, we could encourage teams to go out and try to get better by awarding high-performing teams automatic entries to provincials.

Alberta just rewarded Bottcher's strong season with a berth to provincials.

Better competition at provincials = increased standard of play in the province = better results in national competition. Ontario's system needs some serious reconsideration. (Manitoba's too! Though at least there are CTRS berths available.)

Anyone who still thinks that the players boycotted Briers in the early 2000s for "cash" needs to go back and read their history. Nolan Thiessen had a great blog post on this subject earlier this season.

I maintain that we should want the best teams competing for the highest curling prizes in adequate playing conditions. Somehow that seems to have become an unpopular opinion on this board.

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01-04-15 07:58PM
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i just think its stupid that a team like balsdon who's played next to nothing al season get a bye into the provincial championship. unless there is a reason for that but if they chose to play just 1 event then i just cant be okay with that

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01-04-15 08:07PM
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout
OR, we could encourage teams to go out and try to get better by awarding high-performing teams automatic entries to provincials.


Better competition at provincials = increased standard of play in the province = better results in national competition. Ontario's system needs some serious reconsideration. (Manitoba's too! Though at least there are CTRS berths available.)


I maintain that we should want the best teams competing for the highest curling prizes in adequate playing conditions. Somehow that seems to have become an unpopular opinion on this board.



The idea that certain teams are entitled to be at the Provincials, or Brier for that matter is what's unpopular.

Just because you don't recognise a team a team name from WCT events, because they've chosen to play quality local events, does not mean they're they are a lesser team. To win Region 3 in Ontario you had to beat 2 of: former Brier/World Champion, Olympic Silver medalist, and Canadian Mixed Champion. How can you tell me a team doing this is not up to quality ompetition?

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01-04-15 08:32PM
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Meh

quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad
I have heard from ancient curlers that adapting to any & all ice conditions is part of the skill set...maybe team Howard had an off weekend. Maybe glen misses Wayne more than we realize?


Might be accurate, the old adage - both teams play on the same ice.
The problem is I see it though, straight, crappy ice with no curl brings the good teams down to the level of the also rans in a competition. Finesse, quality curling goes out the window in most cases. What's the point of playing on ice where you can't effectively curl around guards, or if someone is lucky enough to get behind a guard the opposing team can't get access to it.

Been there, done it.

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01-04-15 10:47PM
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Bob-a-loo unloads

http://bobweeksoncurling.blogspot.c...rasses-yet.html

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01-04-15 11:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by doubletakeout

I maintain that we should want the best teams competing for the highest curling prizes in adequate playing conditions. Somehow that seems to have become an unpopular opinion on this board.



Amen, brother. You're not alone!

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01-04-15 11:30PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
i just think its stupid that a team like balsdon who's played next to nothing al season get a bye into the provincial championship. unless there is a reason for that but if they chose to play just 1 event then i just cant be okay with that


They used all their time off work for the Brier last year. The team couldn't take the days needed to play a heavier schedule this fall.

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01-04-15 11:41PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CURLING NUTS
I'll wager that there is an underlying reason for this loss other than just bad curling or an upset. Either bad rocks or sub-standard ice conditions. I can understand Team Howard getting nipped in one A side game, but a blow out in another with all the marbles on the line. I don't think so.


If a top 10 team can't handle imperfect ice then they don't deserve to consider themselves a top 10 team. Both teams play on the same ice and the "top 10" team should still be better at adjusting.

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01-04-15 11:59PM
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for the last number of years people here complained that they wanted "anyone but Glenn"to represent Ontario, that it was getting old that he was always winning. Now he loses out like 70-80 other teams that enter the event and everyone is up in arms about it. If the team is serious about a provincial run they will play the challenge round, if not then they will play the Skins Game and hopefully cash in.

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01-05-15 12:28AM
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With 16 zones, 4 regions, and a challenge event, we ask 21 clubs to host Mens Tankard events alone each year in Ontario. Plus clubs rotate every year. You're going to run into bad ice somehwere along the line - it's simply inevitable (and it's not fair to blame any of those clubs). It sounds like this was the case once again this weekend, as it is for at least one region every year it seems.

About the adage of "both teams play on the same ice". Sure they do - but on dead straight ice they play watered down curling where certain shots aren't available. Even the best teams can't make shots that aren't available, and straight ice is an absolute equalizer because of it. And it's not that Villard or Squires (who beat Howard) aren't good teams - they absolutely are good teams. But poor ice means that no team has the ability to play their best, them included. We should be concerned about that regardless of who wins (and many have been for many years).

It's an even bigger shame for an elite team traveling the country and playing 10-12 weekends before zones to have their advantage in skill neutralized by ice conditions. Sure, they created and benefit from the WCT, but don't act like the CCA and OCA don't benefit from marketing them. Further, I don't care how much money they make along the way or how fair anyone perceives it to be - a system that limits the best teams by putting them on bad ice means a lower overall quality of curling is determining our provincial reps, and potentially weaker fields are created each year as a result. We should want everyone to have to beat the best AT their best to get through, and not to bring the best down a notch to give everyone a chance.

Meanwhile, zone entries decline each year, and clubs barely want to host them (if at all - there's zero incentive). So why do we still hold on to these things? What's the benefit, if any, to anyone involved? Eliminate zones already, and make regions open to everyone (instead of just 8 qualifiers). That's 16 fewer events forced on clubs who already don't want or can't adequately host them. Will anyone honestly miss them? Plus it also means better odds of good conditions at remaining events, because the OCA might even be able to choose between clubs each year to host them.

Better curling is what we should be striving for, rather than sitting back on old adages while our system fails and our events are poor. It doesn't matter that Howard lost today - people have been talking about this for many years, it's just a bigger highlight this year than others. Hopefully it doesn't negatively impact Dorchester too much, but you gotta think it will. The OCA is missing their golden boy this year, and I hope it means change is coming.

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01-05-15 09:31AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
i just think its stupid that a team like balsdon who's played next to nothing al season get a bye into the provincial championship. unless there is a reason for that but if they chose to play just 1 event then i just cant be okay with that


As the reigning Ontario Champion, they get a bye to the Provincials. Glen Howard actually fought for this for many years with the OCA to make this happen.

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01-05-15 11:14AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Unregistered
With 16 zones, 4 regions, and a challenge event, we ask 21 clubs to host Mens Tankard events alone each year in Ontario. Plus clubs rotate every year. You're going to run into bad ice somehwere along the line - it's simply inevitable (and it's not fair to blame any of those clubs). It sounds like this was the case once again this weekend, as it is for at least one region every year it seems.

About the adage of "both teams play on the same ice". Sure they do - but on dead straight ice they play watered down curling where certain shots aren't available. Even the best teams can't make shots that aren't available, and straight ice is an absolute equalizer because of it. And it's not that Villard or Squires (who beat Howard) aren't good teams - they absolutely are good teams. But poor ice means that no team has the ability to play their best, them included. We should be concerned about that regardless of who wins (and many have been for many years).

It's an even bigger shame for an elite team traveling the country and playing 10-12 weekends before zones to have their advantage in skill neutralized by ice conditions. Sure, they created and benefit from the WCT, but don't act like the CCA and OCA don't benefit from marketing them. Further, I don't care how much money they make along the way or how fair anyone perceives it to be - a system that limits the best teams by putting them on bad ice means a lower overall quality of curling is determining our provincial reps, and potentially weaker fields are created each year as a result. We should want everyone to have to beat the best AT their best to get through, and not to bring the best down a notch to give everyone a chance.

Meanwhile, zone entries decline each year, and clubs barely want to host them (if at all - there's zero incentive). So why do we still hold on to these things? What's the benefit, if any, to anyone involved? Eliminate zones already, and make regions open to everyone (instead of just 8 qualifiers). That's 16 fewer events forced on clubs who already don't want or can't adequately host them. Will anyone honestly miss them? Plus it also means better odds of good conditions at remaining events, because the OCA might even be able to choose between clubs each year to host them.

Better curling is what we should be striving for, rather than sitting back on old adages while our system fails and our events are poor. It doesn't matter that Howard lost today - people have been talking about this for many years, it's just a bigger highlight this year than others. Hopefully it doesn't negatively impact Dorchester too much, but you gotta think it will. The OCA is missing their golden boy this year, and I hope it means change is coming.




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Find a way to play on better ice conditions and a lot of this nonsense goes away. The top teams are happy to COMPETE because that's what they do. Just take away the bullsh*t conditions where it's flipping a coin anyway.

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01-05-15 11:14AM
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I don't understand how people still use the tired argument that the ice is the same for both teams. It's obvious that bad ice is an equalizer. It prevents teams from playing difficult shots and the game becomes a battle of simple shots. Yes, the "better" team should be still be better at simple shots, but the advantage is significantly diminished.

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01-05-15 11:56AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
I don't understand how people still use the tired argument that the ice is the same for both teams. It's obvious that bad ice is an equalizer. It prevents teams from playing difficult shots and the game becomes a battle of simple shots. Yes, the "better" team should be still be better at simple shots, but the advantage is significantly diminished.


It's because of your last statement that the better team should still be better at simple shots, as well as having better skill means that you should be able to adapt to ice conditions better in terms of making the shot called. If you're an elite team, like Howard, you have to win these games as well (and it is a double-knockout so you do get a mulligan) to continue being considered as elite. In other competitive sports it is said that good teams win ugly, and less than immaculate ice is the curling equivalent of winning ugly.

It also doesn't help the perception of elite curlers and gain them sympathy when they blame every loss to lower-quality opposition on the ice conditions or campaign to get free passes past games that they feel like they're entitled not to play. Sure, the ice may not always be perfect but the best teams need to overcome those obstacles, or at the very least they need to shut up, congratulate the opposition on a well-played game, and learn how to adapt to non-arena ice.

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01-05-15 12:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
I don't understand how people still use the tired argument that the ice is the same for both teams. It's obvious that bad ice is an equalizer. It prevents teams from playing difficult shots and the game becomes a battle of simple shots. Yes, the "better" team should be still be better at simple shots, but the advantage is significantly diminished.


What kind of "difficult" shot are you alluding too? If the ice is bad I would think all shots would be difficult.

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01-05-15 12:32PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy


It's because of your last statement that the better team should still be better at simple shots, as well as having better skill means that you should be able to adapt to ice conditions better in terms of making the shot called. If you're an elite team, like Howard, you have to win these games as well (and it is a double-knockout so you do get a mulligan) to continue being considered as elite. In other competitive sports it is said that good teams win ugly, and less than immaculate ice is the curling equivalent of winning ugly.

It also doesn't help the perception of elite curlers and gain them sympathy when they blame every loss to lower-quality opposition on the ice conditions or campaign to get free passes past games that they feel like they're entitled not to play. Sure, the ice may not always be perfect but the best teams need to overcome those obstacles, or at the very least they need to shut up, congratulate the opposition on a well-played game, and learn how to adapt to non-arena ice.



Nolan Theissen has already debunked this much more eloquently than I can, if you search out his blog. But your argument is flawed. What bad ice does, is the equivalent of removing the 3 point line in basketball. Or making two NHL teams play on a bumpy, slushy ice surface. The result isn't some magical 'gutsy performance' - it's random. It's game changing. Might as well save everybody some time and just play cards.

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01-05-15 01:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest


What kind of "difficult" shot are you alluding too? If the ice is bad I would think all shots would be difficult.



For example, a hack weight hit around a guard can be made on good ice, but isn't even possible on straight ice. This is a weapon the really great teams have that is completely taken away simply due to the ice conditions. Depending on how straight the ice is, simple comearounds can become impossible. Runbacks, freezes, really any shot that requires significant precision becomes difficult enough that the shot is often not worth trying. You're right to say that all shots are difficult on bad ice, but that just means teams will play tend to play the least difficult ones like open hits.

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01-05-15 01:28PM
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so are you saying Elite teams are "one trick ponies"and can only compete to their level on arena ice, remove them from that and put them on ice that the majority of curlers play on and they become normal or less than normal as the average curler is more adaptable?

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01-05-15 01:40PM
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so are you saying Elite teams are "one trick ponies"and can only compete to their level on arena ice, remove them from that and put them on ice that the majority of curlers play on and they become normal or less than normal as the average curler is more adaptable?


If you weren't so obviously being tongue in cheek with this, I'd respond. But I shake my head knowing that some people will nod their head and "agree".

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01-05-15 01:42PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shawzy


It's because of your last statement that the better team should still be better at simple shots, as well as having better skill means that you should be able to adapt to ice conditions better in terms of making the shot called. If you're an elite team, like Howard, you have to win these games as well (and it is a double-knockout so you do get a mulligan) to continue being considered as elite. In other competitive sports it is said that good teams win ugly, and less than immaculate ice is the curling equivalent of winning ugly.

It also doesn't help the perception of elite curlers and gain them sympathy when they blame every loss to lower-quality opposition on the ice conditions or campaign to get free passes past games that they feel like they're entitled not to play. Sure, the ice may not always be perfect but the best teams need to overcome those obstacles, or at the very least they need to shut up, congratulate the opposition on a well-played game, and learn how to adapt to non-arena ice.



Firstly, I haven't heard the Howard team make any comment about the ice conditions, so I don't know where that argument is coming from. It's just people here who assume (probably correctly) that the ice must have been pretty bad for these teams to beat Howard.

But, it's not necessary to have perfect ice, just ice that allows for a reasonable game of curling. I wasn't there so I have no idea how good or bad the ice was, but if the description posted here is accurate, there was almost no curl. To me, curling must have some curl. I know that's a revolutionary notion, but if the ice has little to no curl, it's a completely different game as far as I'm concerned, and not a very interesting one either.

There is a point where the conditions change the game to a point where it is no longer the same game. What if they were playing on ice with no pebble? Would people still say both teams are playing on the same ice? How bad would conditions have to get?

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01-05-15 01:47PM
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The problem I have with the zones and regions being played on bad ice is that once you get to the provincials, Brier, and/or Worlds you are on great ice with great rocks. It seems kind of stupid to qualify teams on straight ice and then throw them onto the Tankard ice with 4-6 feet of swing.

I guess the real problem is that there are countless other provinces getting the top teams to their respective provincials via points, etc. Ontario is behind the times and our teams are the ones at a disadvantage. If the Brier wasn't evolving the way it is I would say great keep the setup the way it is, but that's not the case.

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01-05-15 02:25PM
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Nolan Theissen has already debunked this much more eloquently than I can, if you search out his blog. But your argument is flawed. What bad ice does, is the equivalent of removing the 3 point line in basketball. Or making two NHL teams play on a bumpy, slushy ice surface. The result isn't some magical 'gutsy performance' - it's random. It's game changing. Might as well save everybody some time and just play cards.



In any of those above scenarios I would still expect the "better" team to win. If they can't then I'm not going to sit around and say the system is flawed because of it (which is the sentiment people are expressing that I'm really arguing against).

I think everyone can agree that we want the following two things:

1) Curlers, fans, and, let's not forget icemakers, want the best ice possible for each and every game regardless of the calibre of team playing.

2) Fans want to see the "best" teams competing at the highest levels.

Where everyone seems to disagree is what the word "best" is supposed to mean. For some it is the name. For others it is the team with the most points. For others it is the team that enters and beats all of the teams put in front of them, regardless of how many or the relative quality.

The current system is set up to bring about the latter. If a true playdown is what you want (and I think it's obvious that I think everyone should) then there's nothing to complain about and plaudits should be going out to Aaron Squires and his team.

For those who want teams to qualify by points, then why bother with playdowns at all? Just take McEwen, Jacobs, Koe, Epping, and Gushue and give them their Brier tickets now (interestingly Howard is still behind Epping on this measure). It would make everything much easier and reward the tour wins that everyone seems to value so much.

However, I think a lot of people who fall into the "points" category secretly (or overtly) just want to see the top teams every week on tv. They would be happy to watch the same 8 teams fight it out every weekend, and those teams would be happy to split the money pot 8 ways. It would certainly make the people at Rogers happy with their tv broadcasts.

Ultimately though, the latter two options would kill curling at the "in-between" levels leaving only club curlers and the world elite. The only chance a team outside of the current elite would have to represent their country at either worlds or the Olympics would be if the rest retired. I'm more than happy to watch a fair system that allows anyone to compete. If the risk is that a top team doesn't qualify, who cares?

Besides, it's hard to call someone a curling fan if they don't enjoy cheering for the underdog from time to time or watching someone represent their province for the first time at the Brier. And you certainly can't call yourself an Ontario fan if you will only cheer for Howard at the Brier and not Balsdon or whoever wins this year. Yes, the "names" draw tv viewers but, frankly, I don't care. Curling existed and flourished for centuries without tv and it can still do so if people recognize the problems the game is actually facing (which have nothing to do with the amount of people watching grand slams or even attending them).

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01-05-15 02:30PM
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please tell me that your "all-star team" is a joke. I refuse to believe that anyone could come up with such nonsense, even you ML.


Oh ML has come up with worse scenarios lol Kevin Martin moving to the east coast to curl with Brad Gushue was classic ML stuff it doesn't get much better than that

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01-05-15 02:40PM
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In any of those above scenarios I would still expect the "better" team to win. If they can't then I'm not going to sit around and say the system is flawed because of it (which is the sentiment people are expressing that I'm really arguing against).

I think everyone can agree that we want the following two things:

1) Curlers, fans, and, let's not forget icemakers, want the best ice possible for each and every game regardless of the calibre of team playing.

2) Fans want to see the "best" teams competing at the highest levels.

Where everyone seems to disagree is what the word "best" is supposed to mean. For some it is the name. For others it is the team with the most points. For others it is the team that enters and beats all of the teams put in front of them, regardless of how many or the relative quality.

The current system is set up to bring about the latter. If a true playdown is what you want (and I think it's obvious that I think everyone should) then there's nothing to complain about and plaudits should be going out to Aaron Squires and his team.

For those who want teams to qualify by points, then why bother with playdowns at all? Just take McEwen, Jacobs, Koe, Epping, and Gushue and give them their Brier tickets now (interestingly Howard is still behind Epping on this measure). It would make everything much easier and reward the tour wins that everyone seems to value so much.

However, I think a lot of people who fall into the "points" category secretly (or overtly) just want to see the top teams every week on tv. They would be happy to watch the same 8 teams fight it out every weekend, and those teams would be happy to split the money pot 8 ways. It would certainly make the people at Rogers happy with their tv broadcasts.

Ultimately though, the latter two options would kill curling at the "in-between" levels leaving only club curlers and the world elite. The only chance a team outside of the current elite would have to represent their country at either worlds or the Olympics would be if the rest retired. I'm more than happy to watch a fair system that allows anyone to compete. If the risk is that a top team doesn't qualify, who cares?

Besides, it's hard to call someone a curling fan if they don't enjoy cheering for the underdog from time to time or watching someone represent their province for the first time at the Brier. And you certainly can't call yourself an Ontario fan if you will only cheer for Howard at the Brier and not Balsdon or whoever wins this year. Yes, the "names" draw tv viewers but, frankly, I don't care. Curling existed and flourished for centuries without tv and it can still do so if people recognize the problems the game is actually facing (which have nothing to do with the amount of people watching grand slams or even attending them).



Oh for chr*st sake, just read this. lol I cut and pasted from Nolan's blog as referenced earlier. You've latched on to this most basic meaning of the word 'best', without any thought into what that means. 'Best' at what? Strategy? Hits? Draws? Taps? 'Clutch' shooting? Dealing with pressure?

Anyways, as promised (props to Nolan Theissen) - from his blog about Dealing with Curling Misconceptions (or something to that effect):

No. 4 If the ice is bad for both teams, it should affect you the same way

Before the pitchforks come out, I am not going to say that whining and complaining about the ice conditions is a good thing. I know many fans hear the comments about the ice being garbage on the live microphones and they hate hearing it, so I am not saying you should give us curlers a break on that one.

I get it we GSOC players are spoiled by playing on ice like what Mark Shurek provides us, but what I am here to say is that when a team says the ice conditions were difficult it probably just means that a facet of their game was taken away. It isnt so much that players cant make shots, it is more that they cant trust what the ice is going to do so they are less willing to try the harder shots.

Also for those outsiders to say well both teams have to play on it I have this comparison to draw. Say you have a basketball game and one team has a 6-4 point guard and four guys between 6-9 and 7-3. They face a team with a 5-10 point guard and four guys between 6-3 and 6-9. In order for the little team to have a chance, they are probably going to have to make a bunch of threes early to get the big (probably slower) guys outside so they have some room to maneuver and get closer to the basket (where higher percentage shots are available) to win.

Now take away the three-point line. What incentive does the big team have to go outside to protect against the long (lower percentage) shots? The little team is going to get boat-raced since they do not have any avenue to attack the big team with. The behemoths will sit back and swat everything that comes their way on defence and have a steady stream of post-up baskets at the other end.

The same goes for ice conditions. Say two teams are playing and one is excellent with finesse and the other team is not great drawers but they are exceptional hitters (we can all figure out teams that fall into these categories). If the ice is straight then the finesse team cant draw behind guards, or freeze on rocks behind guards. It is much easier for the hitting team to win right, since the finesse team has nowhere to hide? That is what teams mean when they discuss ice conditions. The best ice gives everyone a chance to play the way they would like to, to trust that every shot is available. The bad ice eliminates a large portion of the shots available.

(It does bring up the need for teams to adapt their strategy when ice conditions are not great and not just complain, but that is a topic for another day).

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