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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
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Eau Claire, WI
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
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M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
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Ringgenberg (9)
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
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W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
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Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
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Lockhart (EE)
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03-01-15 12:40AM
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southerncurler
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
[B]There's a relatively easy fix....

Switch the polarity of the incentives...

Instead of "The HPP points leader goes to Worlds, if they place high enough at Nationals"...something like this (some modifications around the edges probably make sense)

At the conclusion of the United States National Championships, the United States National Team will be determined by the following Criteria (in this order):

1st: If the Winner of the USNC is ranked among the top 4 United States teams in the current Curling Order of Merit (including any points awarded on the OOM for the USNC) or is ranked in the top 15 teams in the World, they will be the USNT.

2nd: If not, then If the team that comes in 2nd in the USNC is ranked among the top 3 United States teams in the current Curling Order of Merit, or is ranked in the top 12 teams in the World, they will be the USNT.

3rd: If not, then If the team that comes in 3rd in the USNC is ranked among the top 2 United States teams in the current Curling Order of Merit, or is ranked in the top 10 teams in the world, they will be the USNT

4th: If not, then if the team that comes in 4th in the USNC is ranked as the top United States team in the current Curling Order of merit, or is ranked in the top 10 teams in the world, they will be the USNT

5th: If all of the above are not met, then the winner of the USNC becomes the USNT.

So now it's "The Winner of Nationals is the rep, if they have enough OOM points to qualify" rather than the other way around. Teams will fight for OOM points to make it so that they can be top 4 at Nationals and have a chance. We send our best team that has done well both at nationals and OOM combined, rather than effectively eliminating one as an issue because of the other.



I'd adjust to start at Top 30 in the world and top 3 in the US but otherwise this is a great proposal, very similar to my post in the Women's Nationals thread. Now how do we get this in front of decision makers.

As to the question of serious OOM events in the US. To me thats a facilities, sponsorship and priorities issue. The fact that the webstreaming costs were passed to the membership doesn't give me hope that we even have the right priorities to make this happen.

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03-02-15 09:11PM
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Alice
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Any guesses which "Olympian" curler(s) have a trip later this month to Squaw Valley? I'll bet an HP staffer or team member goes.
http://www.49ers.com/community/winter-fest.html

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03-03-15 12:16AM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
Any guesses which "Olympian" curler(s) have a trip later this month to Squaw Valley? I'll bet an HP staffer or team member goes.
http://www.49ers.com/community/winter-fest.html



Cannot have Olympic curlers without admin staff

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03-03-15 08:25AM
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owlhooter
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quote:
Originally posted by chubb
I am challenged to write or not to write.

4. USA Teams and International Travel. - IMO whoever has made the decisions for USA teams pre-Olympic and pre-National international travel to events has done so without regard to how the body transitions and the recuperation time. My examples are Debbie in 2010, Erika in 2014 and Nina this past year for Nationals. As a person that has done a lot of international travel, it takes the body weeks to months to recoup. You need your teams well rested and dying to get on the ice.
I wish the Juniors luck this upcoming week in Estonia cause I know they have played a lot.

Cheers

Tet



Great post Tet. Two things to add:

1. Preparation. Having gone to Switzerland with the lads, I can tell you I wasn't prepared to the extent I could have been. There were many things that were brand new, things that didn't have to be so new.

2. Broken record time: like Tet, I got to throw rocks on ice that was typically scraped two times a day. The Canadian kids get that, the rest of the world, who go on long trips to Canada or two week trips to Mike Harris' curling spa get it. I watched a young man who was going to nationals practice on ice that hadn't been scraped for over 48 hours.

It IS like practicing putting on a green that hasn't been mowed for 48 hours. It doesn't help. The lack of scraping, yes, scraping, in the US, to me, is an elephant in the room.

Matt.

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03-05-15 10:19AM
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melvin
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Off discussion perhaps - but I was thinking that as a by-product of the HPP perhaps could be a small effort to help those that didn't make or want to make the HPP cut get teams together to build resumes without any actual affiliation with the HPP.

This could be as simple as compiling a list of motivated, competitive players that just didn't make the combine or didn't qualify for the HPP and sharing that info in that community in some way to help teams self form.

A better iteration might be to take that group of people and run a "bonspiel" of sorts over a long weekend. Charge normal spiel fees - $60 a head or so. Shuffle players around onto different teams so they get exposure to playing with a bunch of different players. Have the HPP coaches, administrators and perhaps players hanging around to answer questions and offer tips. Maybe even offer a clinic or two.

A side effect of this could be the HPP as a whole scoring some good will points, and continuing to building strong "second tier" teams can't be a bad thing long term.

Would love feedback on this idea.

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03-05-15 11:52AM
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VAcurler
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A single post to reply to the two prior posts because I'm feeling a little sick today:


1. Melvin - I love the idea and think it would increase the number of competitive curlers but crazy Eastie ideas that expand the number and mixture of curlers aren't allowed here. Next time you have a good idea send it to Tuck and have him propose it. Then maybe it will be considered.


2. Owlhooter/Tet - for quality practice ice how much curling was done between scrapes? We (Denver) try for 24 hours between scrapes but that's only 2 games (whereas I would assume in Canada they have much more going on during the day). Right now we try to have practice on Friday at lunch and we scrape at 5 on Thursday with two games that night. If/when we get individuals that committed here are you recommending we scrape before practice as well?

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03-05-15 01:18PM
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Grat
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quote:
Originally posted by melvin
A better iteration might be to take that group of people and run a "bonspiel" of sorts over a long weekend. Charge normal spiel fees - $60 a head or so. Shuffle players around onto different teams so they get exposure to playing with a bunch of different players. Have the HPP coaches, administrators and perhaps players hanging around to answer questions and offer tips. Maybe even offer a clinic or two.

A side effect of this could be the HPP as a whole scoring some good will points, and continuing to building strong "second tier" teams can't be a bad thing long term.

Would love feedback on this idea.



They held a variation of this last summer with an HPP open camp. It was lighter on games than what you are talking about, but it was a long weekend with the HPP coaches for a mix of complete teams and individuals. It was an effort to push some of the knowledge and training from the HPP into more of the curling community. As well as providing network opportunities for those looking for a team.

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03-05-15 01:55PM
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owlhooter
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quote:
Originally posted by VAcurler
A single post to reply to the two prior posts because I'm feeling a little sick today:

2. Owlhooter/Tet - for quality practice ice how much curling was done between scrapes? We (Denver) try for 24 hours between scrapes but that's only 2 games (whereas I would assume in Canada they have much more going on during the day). Right now we try to have practice on Friday at lunch and we scrape at 5 on Thursday with two games that night. If/when we get individuals that committed here are you recommending we scrape before practice as well?



Short answer, yes. Until I moved to the US, I'd never thrown on ice that hadn't been scraped that day. Our men's league was played on ice scraped at 4:00pm. The exceptions to the rule were fun spiels on weekends. But real ones often (not always) had scrapes.

I promise you, if your goal is to create good golfers, and you cut the greens every other day, you will fail at your goal.

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03-05-15 09:12PM
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melvin
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quote:
Originally posted by Grat


They held a variation of this last summer with an HPP open camp. It was lighter on games than what you are talking about, but it was a long weekend with the HPP coaches for a mix of complete teams and individuals. It was an effort to push some of the knowledge and training from the HPP into more of the curling community. As well as providing network opportunities for those looking for a team.



Well how about that. Whatever channel this was communicated in, apparently I missed out.

In that case, I'll change my sentiment to: I hope they continue to hold and refine the HPP open camp, and I have the wherewithal to participate.

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03-05-15 10:27PM
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Jimbobogie
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If you are curling on "skating" ice (and unless you're curling at a dedicated "Curling Club" that's what you're doing) then you'll never be able to truly curl. It's the difference between golf and mini-putt. It's good to see that there are more clubs being built down there (while clubs are closing in Canada-go figure).

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03-06-15 02:16PM
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youngen
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quote:
Originally posted by owlhooter

2. Broken record time: like Tet, I got to throw rocks on ice that was typically scraped two times a day. The Canadian kids get that, the rest of the world, who go on long trips to Canada or two week trips to Mike Harris' curling spa get it. I watched a young man who was going to nationals practice on ice that hadn't been scraped for over 48 hours.

It IS like practicing putting on a green that hasn't been mowed for 48 hours. It doesn't help. The lack of scraping, yes, scraping, in the US, to me, is an elephant in the room.

Matt.



I'm unsure who you are referring should be blamed for not having scraped ice to practice on....

I mean, I grew up in ND and have never practiced on unscraped ice when I didn't want to. Exceptions being I was only out there to work on something quick and didn't care about it. That's over 20 years of curling and A LOT of practices. When I was an aspiring junior I had club members knowledegable in ice prep to help before I practiced. When I was in college, I took the initiative to learn how to do it all myself from guys that knew what they were doing. Personally I don't find any blame can be placed on the club unless members with know-how actively refused to help prep the ice for a practice. And I really don't think you can blame the HPP or the USCA for a club's ice conditions. So if that is the case, maybe kids now-a-days should have the wherewithal to ask for or learn about ice prep so they can practice on good ice whenever they want.

It just seems a little too easy to blame it on bad ice. The knowledge is out there. Go find it.

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03-06-15 02:26PM
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youngen
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Also,

I agree that unscraped ice sucks to play on. When I was in college I didn't particularly like the ice conditions of the leagues I played in. I had Dave Stavetieg teach me how to do ice, and for all the years I was in that club I prepped the ice for Monday and Thursday night leagues to guarantee myself and others better conditions.

Just trying to add to my above post, the solution to unscraped ice is pretty easy if you are committed to improving it. A golfer may not get to pull out the mower and trim the greens before a round, but any curler willing can learn to do their own ice.

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03-07-15 02:43PM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by Alice
Any guesses which "Olympian" curler(s) have a trip later this month to Squaw Valley? I'll bet an HP staffer or team member goes.
http://www.49ers.com/community/winter-fest.html



Only Olympians are invited and it's paid fully by the 49ers WinterFest. Am curious though why you have Olympian in quotes? I would suggest you give them a little more respect than that.

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03-07-15 03:37PM
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brianewart
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quote:
Originally posted by melvin
A better iteration might be to take that group of people and run a "bonspiel" of sorts over a long weekend. Charge normal spiel fees - $60 a head or so. Shuffle players around onto different teams so they get exposure to playing with a bunch of different players. Have the HPP coaches, administrators and perhaps players hanging around to answer questions and offer tips. Maybe even offer a clinic or two.

A side effect of this could be the HPP as a whole scoring some good will points, and continuing to building strong "second tier" teams can't be a bad thing long term.

Would love feedback on this idea.



Almost seems like too good of an idea. There's some value to getting a whole bunch of competitive-minded curlers in the same room. As it stands, teams outside the funded HPP form because of who you know. While curling CAN be a small universe, it's still not that small.

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03-07-15 06:41PM
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Alice
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Gerry, I used the quotation marks for their most simple meaning: straight quoting from another written source. And, thanks for the funding news on that event. Maybe you might also then know the answer to my original question of which Olympian(s)?

FWIW: the Olympians I know up at Squaw Valley personally mostly are skiers including one who has coached curlers in a sort of medical games several years ago. She told me the number one thing to respect Olympians is never attach the adjective "former" since once one always one.


quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Only Olympians are invited and it's paid fully by the 49ers WinterFest. Am curious though why you have Olympian in quotes? I would suggest you give them a little more respect than that.

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03-08-15 01:23PM
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quote:
Originally posted by melvin


Well how about that. Whatever channel this was communicated in, apparently I missed out.

In that case, I'll change my sentiment to: I hope they continue to hold and refine the HPP open camp, and I have the wherewithal to participate.



Melvin, I did not hear about this clinic either. I think you have a very good idea and I hope that we can see something like this in the future.

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03-12-15 08:19PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


2. "Alan says we have to go to Canada"...not quite...I said we *currently* have to, because that's where the points are *right now*. I've long thought that if someone would pony up the bucks for a decent paying spiel circuit around the US, teams would flock (it's a point of capitalism...talent goes where the money is...), and then we have the local advantages...but it hasn't happened yet (and I don't think the USCA is creative enough to make it happen).



In 2004 and 2005 Utica was able to put on a cashspiel that attracted a lot of the best international talent in the world. It takes a substantial amount of sponsorship money to make it happen but it can be done. Utica did this largely on their own with local and state funding. Some USCA coordination and national assistance or fundraising could make a small US tour possible. Regional teams, not just HPP teams, can get experience at the highest level, and it's fantastic for membership recruitment. Our US teams unfortunastely did not fare well in our events.

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03-13-15 06:24AM
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Beermaker
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Why doesn't the USCA go after a "Godfather" sponsor for the sport of curling, like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, Jay Leno, Michael Jordan, surely one of those would fall in love with the game if given a chance.

They provide billions of dollars to worthwhile causes but none that ever make it to the regular news network.

Surely a $1,000,000 donation would go a long way in supporting all your programs. Warren Buffett is now worth $73 billions dollars, a million would just be a tip of the iceberg.

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03-13-15 10:11AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Beermaker
Why doesn't the USCA go after a "Godfather" sponsor for the sport of curling, like Warren Buffett or Bill Gates, Jay Leno, Michael Jordan, surely one of those would fall in love with the game if given a chance.

They provide billions of dollars to worthwhile causes but none that ever make it to the regular news network.

Surely a $1,000,000 donation would go a long way in supporting all your programs. Warren Buffett is now worth $73 billions dollars, a million would just be a tip of the iceberg.



I texted Warren last night but haven't heard back yet...do you have Christy Walton's number? I got it last year at the Christmas party but I must have lost it. #sarcasm

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03-16-15 03:51PM
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Flat Hat
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What does the HPP teach curlers in its program?

A little background to start. I have piped up on HPP and USCA/USOC a few times over the past years, having been around a similar situation in another sport. In that sport, Archery, the national coach instituted a common approach to shooting the bow (called form) and introduced a fully rolled out training program with coaching certification at 5 levels. In addition they created a Junior Olympic development program called JOAD which included strict guidelines about who and how and why a student would be allowed to participate. There are olympic training centers (OTC) across the country as well as a selection process to determine the residents of those OTC. This process is via a 'tour' of events that lets athletes earn their way to live and train full time at the OTC.

The coach and his team control the entire process for becoming an olympic athlete in archery, yet the trials are open to anyone, and the athletes need to shoot their way onto the team. a couple of olympics ago, one shooter from outside the program made it to the team, and other shooters from 'the old days' also made the team after being selected for the program without really changing to the new 'form'. More recently, the team is mostly comprised of shooters from within the new system. It took time to develop these shooters.

When I look at the HPP in curling, I see a group that gets to select the team based on 'achievement' and 'availability' and 'coachability' but without any real measure of what that means and how an athlete can do this. I see no standardized training, organized development program, national 'strategy', programs on how to sweep, judge weight from the rock, read ice, deliver the stone or do anything related to being a better teammate. Nor is there any OTC-like infrastructure to build olympic athletes. The HPP seems to have a complete lack of focus on skipping, which clearly is the single most important skill required to win olympic medals.

So what does the HPP teach athletes? How do they add anything besides a layer of puffed up bureaucracy and a pittance of funding? Doesn't this seem backasswards?

it's not good to see this discussion mostly focusing on worthiness, transparency, funding or effectiveness of the program to the complete exclusion of curriculum, infrastructure, development and focus.

Last edited by Flat Hat on 03-16-15 at 09:37PM

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03-18-15 10:09AM
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AlanMacNeill
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Based upon what I'm seeing...what the HPP seems to be teaching is a great ability to win games that aren't actually meaningful.

Which...if you think about it...makes sense...

The HPP promulgated system rewards teams with World Berths for winning bonspiels in November and December, when there's no TV coverage (or at least minimal coverage), and a supply of second and third tier teams to feast upon. You don't have to beat the other World Class teams to garner points, just qualify for the playoffs in an event they are also in, and let the "Strength of field" carry you to a Red, White, and Blue jacket.

Likewise, the US Team in Japan has won their games once they've been mathematically eliminated...against the second teir opposition.

It's a viable strategy, if our goal is to ensure that we're always *in* the Olympics (accumulating a lot of 5th-7th's at Worlds will either get us in, or we will always be a top seed at the qualifier, where we can feast on the 2nd and 3rd teir teams)

what is isn't, however, is a recipe to actually get any medals...

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03-18-15 10:43AM
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Flat Hat
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
Based upon what I'm seeing...what the HPP seems to be teaching is a great ability to win games that aren't actually meaningful.

Which...if you think about it...makes sense...

The HPP promulgated system rewards teams with World Berths for winning bonspiels in November and December, when there's no TV coverage (or at least minimal coverage), and a supply of second and third tier teams to feast upon. You don't have to beat the other World Class teams to garner points, just qualify for the playoffs in an event they are also in, and let the "Strength of field" carry you to a Red, White, and Blue jacket.

Likewise, the US Team in Japan has won their games once they've been mathematically eliminated...against the second teir opposition.

It's a viable strategy, if our goal is to ensure that we're always *in* the Olympics (accumulating a lot of 5th-7th's at Worlds will either get us in, or we will always be a top seed at the qualifier, where we can feast on the 2nd and 3rd teir teams)

what is isn't, however, is a recipe to actually get any medals...



Alan, those skills just can't be taught. Seriously, I was hoping for a glimpse of what the program part of HPP is. From my perspective, it looks like some powerful folks decided they wanted to pick who goes to worlds and olys, and wanted to ride herd on the teams that went so they send a coach. It seems like the same process as ever, only they took the power from the team to organize themselves.

That is a surprise as some of those coaches are really good people and curlers. I think we're missing the opportunity a HPP provides by focusing on short term results and trying to play god from behind the ice.

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03-18-15 11:37AM
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mr. lucky
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If you pay someone to win medals, you get a program that looks like we have. If you pay someone to develop a pool of athletes, you get a program that looks quite different.

You can complain about the current HPP all you want. You can offer suggestions and alternatives too. It will change nothing. The bottom line is the only thing that will change the program is a job description.

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03-18-15 12:06PM
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RockDoc
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quote:
Originally posted by Flat Hat


Alan, those skills just can't be taught. Seriously, I was hoping for a glimpse of what the program part of HPP is. From my perspective, it looks like some powerful folks decided they wanted to pick who goes to worlds and olys, and wanted to ride herd on the teams that went so they send a coach. It seems like the same process as ever, only they took the power from the team to organize themselves.

That is a surprise as some of those coaches are really good people and curlers. I think we're missing the opportunity a HPP provides by focusing on short term results and trying to play god from behind the ice.



FlatHat, you are digging where there's taters...The question is: what is in the HPP curriculum, and how is that curriculum helping our teams become more competitive at the upper level? Elements of what might be in an effective curriculum would be transferable to lower levels, e.g., junior curling and club competitive curling. Alas, we haven't seen the vaunted, innovative curriculum. As you suspect, and many who lurk here as well, the "curriculum" is little more than choosing teams, tinkering with the lineups, and a couple of "camps" a year. Reports about the content of the early versions of the HP camps were...not very encouraging, to be kind.

To get better, I suspect we will need a sustained level of regular training which is informed by regular performance assessment. And the coaches should be assessed as well. What are our short-term and intermediate coaching/training goals? How do we know we are making progress? (It will be too late if we measure our progress by how many medals we win in the next Olympics.) We need to measure and quantify the progress of our training program on a regular basis, for both out team's and coaches' sake. Not by wins and losses, but by how well we play and whether or not our teams make good team decisions on the ice. (You don't control winning and losing-you can only control how well you play.)

Part of the problem is that we probably do not have enough funds to do this properly, so we are trying to do it on the cheap, and we are trying to do it with short-term payoff goals only. The long-term way to do this is to develop qualified coaches and instructors to ramp up junior and young adult competitive curling, and then try to establish a competitive circuit. But that costs $$$ and you have to wait a while for the big payoff.

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03-18-15 12:12PM
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IMWright
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quote:
Originally posted by mr. lucky
If you pay someone to win medals, you get a program that looks like we have. If you pay someone to develop a pool of athletes, you get a program that looks quite different.

You can complain about the current HPP all you want. You can offer suggestions and alternatives too. It will change nothing. The bottom line is the only thing that will change the program is a job description.



To force a major overhaul of the HPP, I'm afraid it is going to require a bigger US flop than how World Women's is going now and how Junior World's was.

The HPP will take credit for any victory and not take responsibility for any losses and blame everyone else until such a major flop occurs. Unfortunately, I can really only see that major flop being the US either not making it into the Olympics or flopping at the Olympics. I don't think much will happen (i.e., fire people, revamp program completely again) before that takes place. So we're probably stuck with this awful HPP program until 2018. I guess the US could suddenly become competitive and be in medal contention again, but how many people honestly think that will happen with the current process?

With any normal job, progress/updates are continually reviewed. You don't wait until the end (Olympics 2018) to ask yourself "Hey, did this work?", you continually evaluate during the time. Is that happening?

Last edited by IMWright on 03-18-15 at 12:17PM

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