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Fort Smith, NT
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09-13-14 11:27AM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
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There is a difference between being cheap and not having money. Clubs have to pay bills based on membership and bar revenues because all the government grant money for the sport goes to organizations like CCA, OCA and CAC. This grant money is supposed to be used to promote the sport but too often ends up as someone's salary.

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09-14-14 10:31AM
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dugless_13
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Dec 2008
Location: 1994 Lumina Dr
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so a per capita fee of $3 to start (2015-16) then increasing incrementally to $ 3.50 ( 2016-17) and $4 by 2017-18 means more money out of the club's bank account and into the CCA's account.

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09-14-14 10:40AM
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Guest
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Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Bring a friend programs are always the best way to promote anything but it takes a good volunteer support group to keep it going. It is very hard for clubs to get volunteers and even harder to get good, hard working volunteers. It isn't long before they get burned out.

In my opinion, the mandatory coaching requirements did more to kill junior curling than any other single factor. A "not so good" coach is better than no coach at all. Many of the people that volunteered to coach may have been great with the kids but either not competitive or no as well trained as would be the perfect situation BUT AT LEAST THEY WERE THERE!

Not that the certified coaches are any ball of fire!



Are these suppose to be suggestions??? They sound like the ramblings of a cranky old man who still thinks it's 1973, and has too much spare time on his hands.

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09-14-14 12:37PM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
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Bring a friend programs are probably one of the most valuable for a club, as these players also have a reason to continue playing after trying as well.

Curling clubs are a community and this is a great way to expand the community. It allows friends to hang out more often and connect better. It would be a good idea for clubs to offer big incentives to curlers who do bring out others to the club, a sort of multi-level marketing strategy.

As for volunteers, the human dynamic is changing where time has often become more valuable than money. So many time-saving services are now available and curling clubs might need to look more at this too.

I know of one club who charges a "volunteer fee" with their membership, that if they work the 4 hours somewhere in the club, they get it back, but otherwise it's a fee that goes to pay for someone to take care of bartending, club management etc. The majority of members are happy to not have to do this, but they specifically pay for someone to take care of it.

These hours can go towards manning a booth at the local fair, to running clinics, to bartending, etc. If you've got an active volunteerism in the club, there's many things that can be done. If not, you can pay someone now who's job is to focus on marketing and growing the club.

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09-15-14 09:53AM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638

quote:
Originally posted by Guest


Are these suppose to be suggestions??? They sound like the ramblings of a cranky old man who still thinks it's 1973, and has too much spare time on his hands.



Or someone who as been directly involved in running a club and programs and knows first hand.

That was an extremely sight full reply, you probably spent hours thinking about it!

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09-15-14 10:02AM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
Bring a friend programs ......

As for volunteers, the human dynamic is changing where time has often become more valuable than money. So many time-saving services are now available and curling clubs might need to look more at this too.

I know of one club who charges a "volunteer fee" with their membership, that if they work the 4 hours somewhere in the club, they get it back, but otherwise it's a fee that goes to pay for someone to take care of bartending, club management etc. The majority of members are happy to not have to do this, but they specifically pay for someone to take care of it.

These hours can go towards manning a booth at the local fair, to running clinics, to bartending, etc. If you've got an active volunteerism in the club, there's many things that can be done. If not, you can pay someone now who's job is to focus on marketing and growing the club.



One of the Yacht Clubs I belong to run on this system. 21 hours a year of volunteer work is required per member and a charge in the range of $32.00 an hour is charged for hours not served. They have something like 500 members and have trouble getting volunteers! As you say, some people rather pay!

The other Yacht Club I belong to has just the opposite problem, some work parties and events have too many volunteers.

Biggest issue in general with volunteers is getting volunteers with the skills you need for a particular task!

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09-16-14 10:22PM
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Guest
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Or someone who as been directly involved in running a club and programs and knows first hand.

That was an extremely sight full reply, you probably spent hours thinking about it!


I'm beginning to understand why you could not get volunteers to work with you.

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09-17-14 12:02AM
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
Bring a friend programs are always the best way to promote anything but it takes a good volunteer support group to keep it going. It is very hard for clubs to get volunteers and even harder to get good, hard working volunteers. It isn't long before they get burned out.



Bring a friend program is a good idea, but it needs to be expanded beyond that. Curling clubs are not very good in making the public believe that they are not some sort of exclusive "country club" type place that looks down on the general public as philistines who dare invade their sacred curling halls. Especially towards folks who have emigrated to Canada.

If curling is to thrive, we need to come up with ways to get to people beyond the friends of curlers group (especially since the age group of curlers is skewing more and more towards the retirement age... we need the 20 and 30 somethings to take up the sport, as well as the kids). And we must drop the attitude.

We may even have to change how we run certain nights in clubs if we are to survive. I know of one club that is considering to take one of the nights that they are struggling with and turn it into a drop in, with 90 minute time slots. One of the common complaints I've heard from people that want to curl (they may have taken a lesson, or tried it as part of a rental or some such), is that they don't want to commit to a season, and that they find 2+ hours too long. So an intermediate step is a good idea...

And as for volunteers... well, in the clubs I've been at, it's always the same handful of folks that volunteer on the ice, the same handful that volunteer off the ice, and the same people that volunteer to "run" the club (i.e., Directors and the like). So the question is, again, how do you get people who don't volunteer to get involved?

I like the idea of a $10/$20 or whatever amount fee to encourage volunteerism. And as long as you take that money for those who don't volunteer and use it to fund qualified staff (maybe even club members who are willing to work at a discount), you can at least spread out the burden of running a club beyond just the usual suspects that always answer the call.

We need to come up with innovation, and embrace it (and yes, sometimes change for the sake of change isn't going to work either... but that's why we test and try different ideas). Curling clubs, especially ones run by folks who thinks "this is the way it's always been done" need to change, and change now. Or they won't have a club at all.

quote:
In my opinion, the mandatory coaching requirements did more to kill junior curling than any other single factor. A "not so good" coach is better than no coach at all. Many of the people that volunteered to coach may have been great with the kids but either not competitive or no as well trained as would be the perfect situation BUT AT LEAST THEY WERE THERE!

Not that the certified coaches are any ball of fire!



Again, this is a change that's not unique to curling. Almost all sports are requiring all coaches, including volunteers, to be trained and certified. The few that don't will be requiring it soon enough.

You can probably figure out why... it's liability issues, and the idea you have a certain minimum standard for all your coaches. Very few sports are left that allow coaches that have no training at all, and those sports will slowly be forced to adopt training programs as well. Especially if they would like to be insured.

I'm going to disagree with your on this (surprised? hah!). An untrained, bad coach is worse, far worse, for the sport than a trained, but still not the greatest coach. The trained coach has a least bothered to take the effort to learn what is expected of him/her as a coach. I remember some of the untrained coaches I've had... and well, they were a disaster. Every trained coach I've seen has at least been able to demonstrate they understand certain concepts which are required to be somewhat effective.

I do wish that the curling associations would throw more money to paying for people taking the coaching courses. I think it would be a great incentive if they provided rebates to folks who completed the required coursework if they in turn wound up coaching a juvenile/junior team for a season, or spent xx hours volunteering as a club coach.

Well, as much as I get annoyed by some of your posts, at least you're making me think!

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Last edited by JustAnotherHack on 09-17-14 at 12:05AM

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09-17-14 03:27PM
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lolar3288
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638

You are certainly right that many other sports have been pushed to CAC coaching standards, in some cases because the mother organizations (like CCA) have been pushed toward CAC by the sports funding officials because they also fund CAC, to a very high level I would add. Other sports, even Hockey, are now having problems getting coach volunteers so it's not just curling!

I don't have as much problem with the training as I do with the assumption that there is only one source of the knowledge, CAC.

Most management positions require team building training, personality recognition training and organizational skill training at a much higher level than the CAC stuff yet CAC, although they claim to do competency based evaluations, recognize nothing but a CAC course, bought and paid for from CAC/CCA/OCA. I don't think they even understand the concept of competency based evaluation (which is a training program in itself)!

I have questioned level three coaches and they had not even heard of Myers- Briggs yet some of the stuff they were presently was clearly based, and not accuracy interpreted from Myers-Briggs matrix training.

Often we are excluding excellent, well trained people just because they don't have the time or inclination to take a CAC course.

I'm not saying we need to scrap everything, but if we do not look at things with a critical and honest eye we will not make improvements and advancements.

I think your idea of free coach training is great and would like to see that expanded.

What might work is to drop the mandatory coach crap and have CCA in hand with CAC use some of the millions in grant money they are given to run free coaching training at clubs, say one in each area. I'm sure the clubs would welcome the training and offer the space free.

One issue which is not part of coach train is mandatory police checks and in my view that needs to be strongly policed! They use to expire every 3 years and I wonder how many clubs actually check!

I may not agree with all the ideas but at least we are getting people thinking and nothing but good can come of that.

Last edited by lolar3288 on 09-17-14 at 03:36PM

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09-18-14 02:36AM
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JustAnotherHack
Swing Artist

 

Registered: Dec 2012
Location: BC, Ontario (and a few other places too...)
Posts: 268

quote:
Originally posted by lolar3288
You are certainly right that many other sports have been pushed to CAC coaching standards, in some cases because the mother organizations (like CCA) have been pushed toward CAC by the sports funding officials because they also fund CAC, to a very high level I would add. Other sports, even Hockey, are now having problems getting coach volunteers so it's not just curling!

I don't have as much problem with the training as I do with the assumption that there is only one source of the knowledge, CAC.

Most management positions require team building training, personality recognition training and organizational skill training at a much higher level than the CAC stuff yet CAC, although they claim to do competency based evaluations, recognize nothing but a CAC course, bought and paid for from CAC/CCA/OCA. I don't think they even understand the concept of competency based evaluation (which is a training program in itself)!

I have questioned level three coaches and they had not even heard of Myers- Briggs yet some of the stuff they were presently was clearly based, and not accuracy interpreted from Myers-Briggs matrix training.

Often we are excluding excellent, well trained people just because they don't have the time or inclination to take a CAC course.

I'm not saying we need to scrap everything, but if we do not look at things with a critical and honest eye we will not make improvements and advancements.

I think your idea of free coach training is great and would like to see that expanded.

What might work is to drop the mandatory coach crap and have CCA in hand with CAC use some of the millions in grant money they are given to run free coaching training at clubs, say one in each area. I'm sure the clubs would welcome the training and offer the space free.

One issue which is not part of coach train is mandatory police checks and in my view that needs to be strongly policed! They use to expire every 3 years and I wonder how many clubs actually check!

I may not agree with all the ideas but at least we are getting people thinking and nothing but good can come of that.



Myers-Briggs testing/theory has little to do with how coaching instruction, and to be honest, a coach really doesn't need to know in great detail about it to be able to get the point that different people have different learning styles. Not sure why you're throwing this out there... this point is irrelevant to the discussion of certified coaching.

(Besides, Myers-Briggs is not the end all, be all of personality testing. Especially since 50% of people, if they do the test again, score completely different than the first time... it's a guide that you can base some coaching theory on, but at the level the majority of volunteers coaches will be at, it's really not important to know what an INFP is versus a ESTJ)

And while the CAC might not be the only game in town, it is the primary source for athletic coaching in Canada. All that management training and buzz topics like competency based evaluation you're throwing out there is well... irrelevant.

(And yes, I have taken a large amount of corporate management/coaching and athletic coaching courses... I can throw out all the buzz phrases as well. There are similarities between them, but the theory behind a lot of it really isn't relevant to most athletic coaches.)

The point I'm getting at is, if you want to develop something different that what the CAC has in place, and become recognized/accredited as a source of athletic coaching certification, then have at it. But it seems a bit silly when you have an organization that is international recognized to not use it. Feel free to critique their methods, but this is the template all certified coaches in Canada (not just curling) are going to use, so we may as well use it too.

I don't agree with dropping mandatory coaching crap as you put it. It's the way of the world (for insurance and liability purposes), and it does provide a minimum standard that is expected (and should be expected) of anyone willing to coach. Completing the Competition Coach course takes two days (one day for the Club Coach), and an hour (plus a bit of prep time) to do the on-ice certification. If that is such a burden for someone to complete I would question whether that person would be a suitable coach in the first place.

I would agree that criminal records checks should be included in that as well, especially for junior/juvenile coaches.

It's posts like this one where I really have issue with what you say. It seems like your solution to everything is to take the money away from the organized associations and give it to the clubs because they can do it better themselves. But you cannot demonstrate how it would be better (and the clubs have not demonstrated that either). The CCA/OCA/CAC allows us to pool resources and actually share and standardize things like coaching. While I don't always agree with their methods, plans or policies, I think we do a far better job with them then we ever could without.

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09-18-14 11:43AM
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Marc Bernard
Hitting Paint

 

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Location: Elmira
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A few things we've tried to boost membership, with varying degrees of success:

1) Drop-in night. Was somewhat successful, but tied up a spot where we might have been able to rent the ice to a larger group. Often had rookies on the ice, and the club had some concern for participant safety.

2) "Curling 101". Ten week program, offered in Fall and Winter, with four weeks of instruction followed by six weeks of games. Club members/coaches assist during the games with strategy, fundamentals, etc. This has been very successful, and has been the major source of new members in the last two years.

3) Discounts for new members. We offer a pro shop certificate for any new members. Most buy a pair of shoes or a broom.

4) Changing a men's league to an open league. This is new for this season. Response so far has been great. The men's league was dwindling, and this has filled a draw that was barely running last year.

5) Bulk mailing flyers to targeted areas of the region.

We're also considering offering a discount to home buyers in a new subdivision going up near the club.

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09-18-14 01:13PM
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lolar3288
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Burlington
Posts: 638

quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


Myers-Briggs testing/theory has little to do with how coaching instruction, and to be honest, a coach really doesn't need to know in great detail about it to be able to get the point that different people have different learning styles. Not sure why you're throwing this out there... this point is irrelevant to the discussion of certified coaching.

(Besides, Myers-Briggs is not the end all, be all of personality testing. Especially since 50% of people, if they do the test again, score completely different than the first time... it's a guide that you can base some coaching theory on, but at the level the majority of volunteers coaches will be at, it's really not important to know what an INFP is versus a ESTJ)

And while the CAC might not be the only game in town, it is the primary source for athletic coaching in Canada. All that management training and buzz topics like competency based evaluation you're throwing out there is well... irrelevant.

(And yes, I have taken a large amount of corporate management/coaching and athletic coaching courses... I can throw out all the buzz phrases as well. There are similarities between them, but the theory behind a lot of it really isn't relevant to most athletic coaches.)

The point I'm getting at is, if you want to develop something different that what the CAC has in place, and become recognized/accredited as a source of athletic coaching certification, then have at it. But it seems a bit silly when you have an organization that is international recognized to not use it. Feel free to critique their methods, but this is the template all certified coaches in Canada (not just curling) are going to use, so we may as well use it too.

I don't agree with dropping mandatory coaching crap as you put it. It's the way of the world (for insurance and liability purposes), and it does provide a minimum standard that is expected (and should be expected) of anyone willing to coach. Completing the Competition Coach course takes two days (one day for the Club Coach), and an hour (plus a bit of prep time) to do the on-ice certification. If that is such a burden for someone to complete I would question whether that person would be a suitable coach in the first place.

I would agree that criminal records checks should be included in that as well, especially for junior/juvenile coaches.

It's posts like this one where I really have issue with what you say. It seems like your solution to everything is to take the money away from the organized associations and give it to the clubs because they can do it better themselves. But you cannot demonstrate how it would be better (and the clubs have not demonstrated that either). The CCA/OCA/CAC allows us to pool resources and actually share and standardize things like coaching. While I don't always agree with their methods, plans or policies, I think we do a far better job with them then we ever could without.



I will be quick with my reply because this can become a major discussion.
50% of team coaching is understanding the interactions of a team and between team players so if you really understand Meyer-Briggs work on Jung's theories you know that it is a major factor. Of course CAC hasn't got there yet. Knowing first who is a ESTP or INFJ is important but knowing how they interact and how they change with pressure is crucial when coaching!

Competency based evaluation is the main issue when it come to the ability to perform and is a major evaluation tool by the largest and best of companies. You can train anyone but in the end, did they actually learn anything or have the intuition to do the job? We all know high qualified people that can't perform!

CAC maybe international know but certainly not international acclaimed or held in any esteem. In fact many other countries have hired people to coach national teams out of Canada who technically can't coach in Canada because they never did the CAC stuff. Not only in curling but many other sports.

I guess we have to agree that you are all about qualifications and I'm more concerned about competency.

From what the insurance person at our club told me, the liability issue of certified versus non-certified is a non-issue.

Marc...I think the "Curling 101" is a great idea! In our club getting an evening time slot is an issue but the weekend is a possibility. Again, getting a volunteer to run it could be challenging and getting the word out, but all that is doable!

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