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02-15-17 08:23PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Agree
Isn't that the whole idea of having a 5th? To fill in as required? No different if it's skip or lead.
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02-16-17 08:50AM |
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Justintwiss
Hitting Paint
Registered: Oct 2013
Location: St.Claude
Posts: 128 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
it is a five man team
its cheating
i hope they lose every game
Its not cheating in any way at all. There are a few teams that have 5 person teams and rotate players all year due to work, family, or other issues.
If you think its cheating then please show everyone where in the rules does it say you cant have 5 people listed and rotate them in the lineup?
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02-16-17 08:56AM |
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rbunten
Knee-Slider
Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 8 |
Cheating? Are you serious?
How are they cheating?
The role of a fifth is well established in both the rules and precedent.
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02-16-17 09:17AM |
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propane_cooker
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 50 |
Maybe a little unconventional, but definitely not cheating. I don't think it's that big a deal... lots of teams have done stuff like this, Scotland mens team with Brewster and Murdoch did this didn't they? I seem to recall the Asian teams doing some swapping at skip and they bring a 5th man in if someone isn't preforming well.
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02-16-17 01:22PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
5th
quote: Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating
ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport
the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...
i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game
answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "
" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "
question. what is the definition of cheating
the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)
whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off
if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..
my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..
plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )
To quote my inner Iverson, " 5th playa, 5th playa.... we talkin' bout 5th playa. Cheating? No, 5th playa."
You can't seriously think using a 5th is cheating. If anything it is to the detriment to the team forced to do so. There's no continuity using 2 different players especially at skip.
And the definition of cheating is "Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation by dishonest means. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation"
They key phrase breaking of rules. No rule is broken by using a declared 5th player during the game and or games.
So, all in for 5th playa!
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02-16-17 02:49PM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
5 th playa. One of the early diversions of the "intended" use of a 5 th player. Many of you will remember Gushue going ( easy to qualify out of nfl with his ability and commitment) to the Olympic trials. As Stoughton said, "didn't have the chance of a snowball in hell to win", and he didn't. However , he pushed one of his players out, put his 5 th in as Skip, who just happened to be the most winningest curler of the day, Russ Howard, who went on to win the trials by a measure and than won the Olympic gold with Russ skipping and Nicholl shooting "lights out" at third. Brad took all the accolades for that gold and rarely if ever gave credit to the actual skip of that rink. Contrary to the perception, Brad has not won a meaningful spiel as a skip, a number of slams, yes.
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02-16-17 04:21PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
Russ Howard was never the 5th player. The forgotten man, Mike Adam unselfishly and bravely stepped down from 2nd to be the 5th to allow Russ to be 2nd. Gushue was still "SKIP" but Russ threw 2nd and called the game. One of the smartest roster moves in history. Good young team with one of the greatest minds calling the game. All credit must be given to Mike Adam for allowing this to happen.
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02-16-17 04:24PM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
quote: Originally posted by Ajay
5 th playa. One of the early diversions of the "intended" use of a 5 th player. Many of you will remember Gushue going ( easy to qualify out of nfl with his ability and commitment) to the Olympic trials. As Stoughton said, "didn't have the chance of a snowball in hell to win", and he didn't. However , he pushed one of his players out, put his 5 th in as Skip, who just happened to be the most winningest curler of the day, Russ Howard, who went on to win the trials by a measure and than won the Olympic gold with Russ skipping and Nicholl shooting "lights out" at third. Brad took all the accolades for that gold and rarely if ever gave credit to the actual skip of that rink. Contrary to the perception, Brad has not won a meaningful spiel as a skip, a number of slams, yes.
Totally off-topic, but it has always irked me a bit that the more time passes, the more that gold seems to be attributed to 'Brad Gushue and his team'. It's kind of like saying Dave Nedohin won all those titles and Randy Ferbey was just along for the ride.
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02-16-17 06:00PM |
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darkwing01
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 67 |
Randy never made the big pressure shot with the game on the line. I can say draw the edge of the button against 3 to win a
Brier. Dave made the big shots.
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02-16-17 06:09PM |
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 261 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating
ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport
the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...
i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game
answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "
" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "
question. what is the definition of cheating
the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)
whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off
if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..
my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..
plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )
As a provincial curling champion, and a competitive athlete in multiple other sports, I'll refute you on many points, including your horrific grasp of the English language. As a former chef, I'm fine handling regular plates, utensils, and knives as well.
A fifth man in curling isn't cheating. The rules allow for every team to bring an alternate player with them. The alternate player is eligible to be substituted for any player on the team. This is written right into the rules. You can't say it's cheating if it's in the rules. It's not even breaking the spirit of the rule. Nowhere does it say the alternate player has to be used for emergencies only. Teams are free to use the alternate player as they see fit.
I've never been on a team with an alternate/fifth player. I wouldn't join a team that had those intentions, but that's because I believe a team is better when all players are practicing and playing the game together. A fifth breaks up this cohesion. There are teams that need it due to work, family etc. Fleury's team was a notable example last year. Having a five man/woman team is not being dishonest or unfair. It is within the rules, they aren't hiding it, and every single team has the same opportunity to have a five man team.
Your other example of cheating is also laughable. Once again, every curler has the opportunity to earn these benefits, but to gain them you have to sacrifice many things. Why should every curler get a piece of the funding if they aren't willing to work for it? One of the goals of Curl Canada is to have champions at world and Olympic championships. They've done a pretty good job at this lately. They've inspired junior curlers to go after their own Olympic dreams. The curlers who are chasing WCT points are giving up time with their family, friends, jobs, career ambitions, etc. They should be rewarded for it. Instead of complaining that the system is unfair, maybe get off the computer and try and get these dollars yourself. Winners focus on winning. Losers focus on winners. It's easy to see who you focus on.
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02-16-17 06:13PM |
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Ajay
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 570 |
Firstly,Russ was brought aboard as the 5 th. Secondly, in curling, the one who calls the game is always the skip, regardless of who throws last rocks. And yes it has also always irked me that he has assumed that Olympic gold to be his and not including Russ. For the record, he has developed into a very fine curler and representative of the sport.
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02-16-17 06:44PM |
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340 |
Shannon has an injured back. The job of a 5th is to step in when there is an issue of sickness or injury. Which is precisely what Heather Nedohin did. My bet is that if Shannon's back is healthy, Nedohin won't step on the ice all week.
Injury=legal replacement as clearly stipulated in the rules. Ergo, no cheating and fresca is just being a knob.
As well, bringing up the Howard/Gushue team is being a knob. That was a totally different situation which has absolutely nothing to do with the Kliebrink team.
Good luck to Team Alberta and all the other ladies at the STOH.
__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson
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02-16-17 06:57PM |
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darkwing01
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 67 |
quote: Originally posted by Ajay
Firstly,Russ was brought aboard as the 5 th. Secondly, in curling, the one who calls the game is always the skip, regardless of who throws last rocks. And yes it has also always irked me that he has assumed that Olympic gold to be his and not including Russ. For the record, he has developed into a very fine curler and representative of the sport.
The Gold medal Brad has belongs to him, the other 4 players have one to that belong to them that they won as a team.
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02-16-17 07:13PM |
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 261 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
squigsy
not necessary to repeat my written in stone verbatim
if you think its not cheating im serving you with paper plates and plastic spoons so you dont steal the good stuff
are you a woman curler ? which province yukon ?
in off. i got my definition from the dictionary
alternating skips is cheating - i said clearly i had no problem with 5th players in emergencies
jeeze louise , what time do they start drinking out east
Well, you're wrong on many more things again, but I bet that happens to you often. I don't need your "good stuff" from IKEA. My Henckels suit me just fine.
Do you think Yukon is in the east? Either way I'm a male from, and won in, a western province.
I know you said you had no problems with emergencies. I wasn't disputing that. I am disputing how the fifth/alternate player can enter the game. The rules clearly state it can be in any situation. Alternating skips isn't cheating. If it was, there would be at least one top level curler who would have said something. The only person who thinks it's cheating is you. I can't find one, literally one, other person who thinks it's cheating. Either fight to change the rule, or accept it. You can't call someone a cheater for following the rules. Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.
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02-16-17 07:48PM |
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist
Registered: Feb 2009
Location:
Posts: 338 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating
ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport
the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...
i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game
answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "
" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "
question. what is the definition of cheating
the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)
whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off
if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..
my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..
plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )
You're ridiculous and out of touch. Most sports adapt over time, you seemingly got left behind. Reminds me how Alberta curling orgs resisted the FGZ initially because it supposedly was going to ruin the game.
ps You don't understand what the term "cheating" means.
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02-16-17 10:19PM |
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nelsosi
Swing Artist
Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 498 |
quote: Originally posted by fresca
alternating skips is taking advantage of the rules ...
wait, so does it fall within the rules or doesn't it?
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02-16-17 10:53PM |
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 1875 |
100% yes it does fall within the rules.....alternating skips or 3rd or 2nd or lead or any combination above is within the rules. The 5th playa can be used at any time in the game or games as
substitution as needed, required, or wanted. Seeing as 99% of the time it makes it worse for team using the substitution, most teams stick to the original 4. In the case of this thread, Shannon has an ailing back and Heather will fill in for "some" of the games "if necessary". I don't see the big deal being made of it by one or two posters here. The other teams would welcome a switch at skip as it would disrupt any flow or momentum they have and it is waaaaayyyy harder to flip flop skips and gain any advantage than to keep the same skip. I can't be alone in this thinking.
And for FRESCA, cheating involves breaking rules. NO CURLING CANADA RULES ARE BROKEN SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
And yes this for whoever is arguing against the 5th player is a waste a database space....... IMO.
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02-17-17 12:04AM |
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KiwiCurl
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Oct 2016
Location: Auckland
Posts: 13 |
You can substitute a player at any time for any reason. Injury, performance, just because you feel like it. All five players on a team have equal standing. It's hard to think of a team sport that *doesn't* have substitution. The best teams plan well for it. It most certainly isn't cheating.
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02-17-17 08:56AM |
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albetts
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 1120 |
quote: Originally posted by southerncurler
This thread is a waste of database space
Yet..... here you are.
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02-17-17 12:21PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
I agree with Fresca. There are several rules that have changed the game for the worse.
1. 5th player
2. Allowing the delivery of the stone after the T-line.
Putting a limit to how far you can slide before releasing the rock.
3. Should not be able to use any broom other than corn.
4. 5th end break.
6. should have stayed with 12 ends.
All of these changes have wrecked the game.
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02-17-17 01:38PM |
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist
Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 261 |
quote: Originally posted by guido
I agree with Fresca. There are several rules that have changed the game for the worse.
1. 5th player
2. Allowing the delivery of the stone after the T-line.
Putting a limit to how far you can slide before releasing the rock.
3. Should not be able to use any broom other than corn.
4. 5th end break.
6. should have stayed with 12 ends.
All of these changes have wrecked the game.
The game went downhill once curlers stopped having to bring their own rocks to the rink.
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02-17-17 01:57PM |
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guido
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Feb 2011
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 1418 |
quote: Originally posted by Squiggsy
The game went downhill once curlers stopped having to bring their own rocks to the rink.
Agreed.
Also, the no smoking on the ice rule. Nothing like seeing the classic Orest Meleschuk delivering a rock with a cig hanging out of his mouth and ashes flying off of it.
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