Registered: Dec 2005
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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLACE YOUR BETS:

Erika Brown-Tetley Even money 1 to 1. Skip won this last year; then went out and gathered some of her very best teammates from years before; won early; won often; obvious pick

Cory Christensen 3 to 1 This HPP Junior team has muscle in the middle with the Tiny Terrorists. Team has been occasionally flashed brilliance this year; playing almost exclusively against Women and seldom against Juniors. Can they flash brilliance in the playoffs? Yes, they can. They are my pick to win it. Prolific hitters, their weaknesses come with draw placement and ice reading. By the time the Page rolls around, neither will be a problem. New coach in Dave Jensen. John Benton coached last year and Benton obviously knows the game extremely well. However, his passionate style and his search for perfection might not have been the best mix with that team. Jensen's quiet support and positive reinforcement looks like a better recipe. Plus, with a firm lineup and only 4 curlers, Jensen gets to dodge some other problems...but Jensen has always been lucky.

Jamie Sinclair 4 to 1 HPP team has an exciting lineup but has failed to supply much excitement to date. One good outing in China; the trip to Switzerland was disappointing.

Nina Roth 5 to 1 HPP has an exciting lineup but has failed to supply much excitement to date. One good outing in Blaine; the trip to Switzerland was disappointing.

(OK, just being cute with the identical descriptions. Jamie cashed pretty well early in the year. Nina did well in Duluth late in the year)

Emily Anderson 10 to 1 Sister to the Tiny Terrorists, she has National experience...but not as a skip. First year in the house has produced mediocre results so far. Close in games vs the very best, but not many wins. A team on the edge of a breakthrough? I think so. The team is spread out from California to Pennsylvania, but they booked the air miles and played. I'm worried about how much the viceskip gets to throw, but the front end has solid players. The USA women's field is not deep and we need more depth...particularly at the skip position. I'm hoping this could be the dawn of something special.

Joy Meechai 15 to 1 Mixed Doubles champ supported by a very good and relatively young front end. Just missed playoffs in St. Paul; missed a nice cash in Canada when keep out of the playoffs by draw shot measurements.

Abi Lindgren 15 to 1 Solid young team out of North Dakota. Nothing flashy. They just throw nice weight and always hit the broom. Often, that's enough. They haven't played much this year, but they did beat my pick on Cory's home ice. Any team that doesn't bring their A game to the ice is going to lose to this solid team.

Small field this year. I'm sorry to see Courtney drop out just when they seem to be finally putting it together. I miss Cassie and Jamie and Jessica and Patti and others, but it is what it is. Good luck to all except for those that place bets. Bad luck to the bettors and good luck to me.

Ben Tucker (I think Mr. Lucky is pretty)

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Well Tuck, I think you nailed that one. Of course the beets are in the barn, it's cold as hell and you have limited TV channels, so plenty of time to dissect the teams.

Of course I will need to bet on former Big Ten Golfing Champion Erika Brown getting her 8th National championship. She will meet Christensen in the final and win. Christensen is the future, but it won't be this year.

I also predict one of the lower three seeds crack the top four.

Biterbar
(Not near as pretty as Tuck)

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Brown wins it over Roth. Other HPP team fails to qualify. Anderson qualifies and Meechai qualifies (coming out of nowhere)

And as for why the small field. There's nothing in it to go to National's if you don't have a chance for moving onwards when the system is set up against you. Maybe there's another reason C. George pulled out, but I'm not surprised.

Not a good way to build up a depth of field.

-I.M. Wright

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I reviewed the USCA Rules and I can't find anything about the 2 Loss Provision Meyers Rule. I'm not dead certain that it actually exists (even for Juniors, let alone Men's and Women's)

If it does exist, it might be key to hang a loss on any team (but especially Erika) before the Finals. If an undefeated team in the the Page 1v2 game, the 2 better win...because, should they lose, they'll need to win 3 games in a row (true semi and beat the undefeated team twice).

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it makes for a tough road.

Ben Tucker

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Both Patti and Courtney withdrew from Nationals since they couldn't justify the expense of a week in Florida if they had no chance of advancing to worlds. Can't really blame them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
Both Patti and Courtney withdrew from Nationals since they couldn't justify the expense of a week in Florida if they had no chance of advancing to worlds. Can't really blame them.

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So dbsdbs rides in on his dead horse with another profound observation. So why does the same system that destroys the Women's field, not do the same on the Men's side.
Please don't tell me the HPP is sexist too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SkipsWhoSayNi
So dbsdbs rides in on his dead horse with another profound observation. So why does the same system that destroys the Women's field, not do the same on the Men's side.
Please don't tell me the HPP is sexist too.

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No one is arguing, about the depth of the Women's field. You blamed the process. The men use the same process, so why doesn't that same program negatively affect them?

Last edited by SkipsWhoSayNi on 01-17-16 at 07:05AM

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Philosophically, I agree with Ni on this one; but dbsdbs has concrete facts on his side. Courtney George and Alex Carlson and Patti Lank are staying home because of the Points/World Team policy.

So the question remains: Do teams spiel more in search of Points because of the policy? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. Teams were getting out often before the policy.

It might be a bad year to dis the policy. It's possible (very possible) that some teams upset Face and Erika, but both of those teams go on to do great at Worlds. I don't believe that the ends will justify the means in the long run. I'm just saying that it might be one of the rare years when the Points thing ends up temporarily looking very wise.

And let's save our more biting remarks for those who deserve them (politicians, Europeans and Gerry Geurts). Yes, dbsdbs and I do rant about some of the directions USA curling has chosen. But when we get tedious, point it out with civility so we don't lose people who post. Let's stay the most interesting and active of Gerry's threads.

Ben Tucker

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The question for dbsdbs was; If it's the process, what's up with the number of Men's teams.

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If you think that it is not true, I would guess you need to do some research.

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No, I'm not going to do research. While my foggy memory is that we had equal or greater number of teams doing equal or greater number of quality (Canadian) events, I refuse to actually look for proof.

I know that curlers of my vintage would play 100 games and over 10 events per year. I know that some years we would run into American teams all over the place. But putting actual numbers to a wild assertion seems insane in these days of Presidential Campaign Debates. I'm just going to let it fly and allow others to prove me wrong.

I have a good chance at being right because we used to have many more competitive teams. If 1 USA team doing 1 Canadian event equals 1 point, we collectively logged more miles before the World Team Point policy.

Ben Tucker (comfortable in my ignorance)

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List of Women Missing from USA Nationals this year:

Patti Lank, M. Lank, Jamie Haskel, Cassie Potter, Jessica Schultz, Sophie Brorson, Miranda Solem, Alex Carlson, Becca Funk, Moulton sisters, Courtney George, Maureen Stolt, Stephanie Sambor, Caitlyn Maroldo, Bauman sisters, Molly Bonner, Karlie Koenig, Maureen Clark, Jackie Lemke, Grace Gabower, Brittany Falk, Gabrielle Coleman, Shelly Kinney, Jillian Walker, etc. MOST of these women are former national champions and many of them are former world medalists. Most of these women played at nationals in the last two years.

I think this list speaks volumes. And it's a sad statement.

I’ve said it before… the USCA can have its HP Program. Work with those teams, train them, etc. But they need to earn the money to play in events, just like everyone else. You get OOM points, you get money. You win Nationals, you get money next year. You place in the top 3 at Nationals, you get money next year. Make it the same for everyone. Why would this be so bad? Maybe because if there wasn’t money up front, some of these athletes wouldn’t be in the HP program? Just guessing…

WE need to keep competitive curling alive in America.

And return Nationals to a National Championship. When’s the last time a “long shot” won women’s nationals? Exactly! You don’t think Erica Brown’s national championship team last year would have finished higher than 10th? (worst finish ever by a USA team at worlds)

Oh! The HPP women's teams will make the playoffs this year. But we shouldn't be impressed. Remember who's NOT there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
Both Patti and Courtney withdrew from Nationals since they couldn't justify the expense of a week in Florida if they had no chance of advancing to worlds. Can't really blame them.

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Last edited by AK267 on 01-18-16 at 06:00PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by fanofcurling
List of Women Missing from USA Nationals this year:

Patti Lank, M. Lank, Jamie Haskel, Cassie Potter, Jessica Schultz, Sophie Brorson, Miranda Solem, Alex Carlson, Becca Funk, Moulton sisters, Courtney George, Maureen Stolt, Stephanie Sambor, Caitlyn Maroldo, Bauman sisters, Molly Bonner, Karlie Koenig, Maureen Clark, Jackie Lemke, Grace Gabower, Brittany Falk, Gabrielle Coleman, Shelly Kinney, Jillian Walker, etc. MOST of these women are former national champions and many of them are former world medalists. Most of these women played at nationals in the last two years.

I think this list speaks volumes. And it's a sad statement.

I’ve said it before… the USCA can have its HP Program. Work with those teams, train them, etc. But they need to earn the money to play in events, just like everyone else. You get OOM points, you get money. You win Nationals, you get money next year. You place in the top 3 at Nationals, you get money next year. Make it the same for everyone. Why would this be so bad? Maybe because if there wasn’t money up front, some of these athletes wouldn’t be in the HP program? Just guessing…

WE need to keep competitive curling alive in America.

And return Nationals to a National Championship. When’s the last time a “long shot” won women’s nationals? Exactly! You don’t think Erica Brown’s national championship team last year would have finished higher than 10th? (worst finish ever by a USA team at worlds)

Oh! The HPP women's teams will make the playoffs this year. But we shouldn't be impressed. Remember who's NOT there.

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Last edited by AK267 on 01-18-16 at 05:49PM

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Wow! That is some list fanofcurling produced with a little research. Research is a good thing; especially if I don't have to do it.

I'd hate for every thread to be consumed with HPP criticism, but that list brings the point home.

Pick a team and place your bets.

Prop bets coming as soon as I drink enough booze to get an imagination.

Ben Tucker

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Men's and Women's are not like Juniors'. In Juniors, the winners advance to Worlds. In Men's and Women's, the Points Leader advances to Worlds (remembering that points are available at Nationals and for the Finals and that the World Representative needs to finish in the Top 3...or to rephrase...the Points Leader of the 3 National Medalists).

So if the winner doesn't automatically advance, do we need the Two Loss Provision Meyers Rule? Do we have the Meyers Rule for Mens and Womens?

Just askin',
Ben Tucker

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Ben-it sort of makes one wonder why they're spending so much money "Staging" the nationals down in Florida....maybe this explains why US television is reluctant to devote more time to the nationals. I'm not an American, but I'm guessing that when an American watches a sports event on TV he/she expects the winning team to be the "Winning" team, if you know what I mean.

I've posted in the US section more than most Canadians (I'm thinking). It may not make me popular with Canadian curling fans but I firmly believe that curling cannot get to the "Next" level of professionalism until the United States sees its own rinks winning world championships. Heck, I was in the old Winnipeg Arena in 1983 and saw Debbie defeat Colleen-that was a long time ago Ben-too damn long. You live next door to the greatest curling nation in the history of the game (sorry, Scotland-the Americans took golf away from you too). We're having problems with the CCA and their "relegation" system. Some (myself included) feel that the Team Canada concept has run its course. But if the CCA ever dreamed about "assembling" teams and have the Brier/Scotties winner NOT go to world's, I guarantee that all hell would break loose.

I know that there is a great concentration of curling around Lakes Michigan and Superior. I know that there is at least one well-known American team (a real "Do It Yourself" team) that has to do a heckofalot of commuting in order to compete (our British Columbia Scotties rep has a similar problem, as do some teams on the pro circuit)-I admire the fact that the US is taking the game to more of the country (a 50 team national would be another issue altogether!)-but Ben, I think you agree that this means of choosing your champion is wrong-and it won't advance the game in your country-and therefore won't help us to advance the game to where it should be.

International hockey has grown more popular since the Canada-US rivalry has picked up-with the Americans winning their share in non-Olympic years, of course-curling needs the USA to do the same thing.

FYI, Canadian basketball used to try something similar by having its national team play together all year at the University of Victoria. All that happened was that U Vic won a lot of Canadian University championships and little else. Their record has long since been surpassed by Carleton-a university that does it "The Regular Way"-and holds their own against NCAA teams too.

Anyway, I just wanted to get that off my chest. I've cared about curling since before a lot of you were born. If you ask other Canucks to give an honest answer I think most of them will agree that curling needs Americans on the podium-including an occasional top step...and this isn't the way to do it.

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is there even any point at all in having national championships this year?

i would think that erika and john are so far a head of everyone else at this point that the only way someone else is gonna go to worlds is if they either dont even play or miss the playoffs.

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In case you may have missed it Rachel Homan's rink (either #1 or #1A in the world) was upset in the Ontario finals. They won't be going to the Scotties or the World's.

Some Canadian curling fans are enjoying their defeat-I really don't know why. I never heard of them trashing a hotel room, but curling fans can be funny (not "Ha Ha"). Nobody (as far as I know) is calling for them to get a "Bye" into the Scotties-certainly not Rachel. Anyway, that's the reason they play the game...upsets happen and things aren't "adjusted" so that a pre-determined winner is chosen.

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im aware of what happened. but i ask this because i know the US uses a point system . i was mainly asking if any of the US teams have any shot of overtaking brown or shuster in points if they win. or is this a case of all brown and shuster have to do is make the playoffs and it will be impossible for anyone to overtake them

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Misty and Jimbo, I'm sure your questions will eventually be answered, BUT HOPEFULLY NOT UNTIL AFTER MY QUESTION IS ANSWERED.

Do we have the Meyers Rule for Men's and Women's?

Jimbo, "...since before you were born"? 1961, youngster.

Misty, yes there is a point or two for holding Nationals. Winning Nationals is, in itself, a worthy goal. The winner also gets the autoberth into some cashspiel somewhere. Do these two points justify using the Meyers Rule? I don't think so. Do they justify the expense of Jacksonville? Heck ya. By holding Nationals in an arena, our teams get valuable arena experience. By holding Nationals is areas where curling is not yet strong, we can grow the sport.

If you did employ the Meyers Rule (I saw Ethan on Saturday...he and Korey took a picture together after the Finals), who gets the points? Winner of the first game get anything? Winner of the second game get half? I suspect the answer is "Do whatever Gerry says". Anyway, I don't even know if the rule applies or where to find the rule. I looked for a little while and then got distracted by a squirrel. I have the attention span of a 5 year old.

Just asking,
Ben Tucker

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Ben-yup, before you were born. I remember when Bud & Ernie were the forces in men's curling (actually Ernie & Bud...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jimbobogie
Ben-yup, before you were born. I remember when Bud & Ernie were the forces in men's curling (actually Ernie & Bud...)

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