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melnycm
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 4

Why is Page Playoff Preferred?

Pls explain why the Page format is used in curling? There may be some minor benefits such as rewarding the #1 seed with some rest but what about the major unfairness of the Page? It basically rewards the loser of the 1/2 playoff with a second chance to win the tournament while the 3 and 4 seeds must play a single elimination?? Come on curling federation - make your sport more credible and use a standard elimination format for the top 4 seeds. The Page format is a poor choice to determine the real winner in a championship.

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Old Post 04-09-16 11:14AM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
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I could not agree more. Hopefully the "big shakeup" in 2018 will dump this format.

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Old Post 04-09-16 11:36AM
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prairie guy
Hitting Paint

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Southern Sask.
Posts: 171

I like the page format. Not a big fan that the loser of the 3-4 game gets another chance at a bronze but I do like giving the top two teams another life and and a game to keep the flow going.

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Ajay
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2014
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Many people have indicated that the top RR teams should be rwarded to some degree. The page playoff does exactly that.

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Old Post 04-09-16 11:59AM
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Squiggsy
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Re: Why is Page Playoff Preferred?

quote:
Originally posted by melnycm
Pls explain why the Page format is used in curling? There may be some minor benefits such as rewarding the #1 seed with some rest but what about the major unfairness of the Page? It basically rewards the loser of the 1/2 playoff with a second chance to win the tournament while the 3 and 4 seeds must play a single elimination?? Come on curling federation - make your sport more credible and use a standard elimination format for the top 4 seeds. The Page format is a poor choice to determine the real winner in a championship.


You gave the reason why it's used in your complaint. The point of the page playoff is to reward the top two seeds by giving them a second chance if they have one bad game after going through the round robin. The three and four seeds should have a harder time to get to the final. If they wanted an easier time, they need to win more games in the round robin.

The worst case scenario for using the Olympics model, is one team goes undefeated, and one other team loses one game. The undefeated team plays the four seed and the one loss team plays the three seed. Those three and four seeds could have 10 losses between them. If both top seeds have bad games, then they are out of the final and one doesn't even get a medal. The page guarantees the final will have one of the top two teams in it, and more often than not, both teams.

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johnnysmoke
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2002
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And we haven't even got to the point where the loser of the semi-final, i.e. the Bronze medal winner has to participate in the
Kafkaesk brÍnze medal game...Ha Ha.

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Old Post 04-09-16 12:09PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

Re: Re: Why is Page Playoff Preferred?

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


You gave the reason why it's used in your complaint. The point of the page playoff is to reward the top two seeds by giving them a second chance if they have one bad game after going through the round robin. The three and four seeds should have a harder time to get to the final. If they wanted an easier time, they need to win more games in the round robin.




Exactly -- which is why Page format is so much better than the 1v4/2v3 playoff for determining the champion. On the other hand, the loser of the Page semi should get the bronze medal and not have to play the loser of the 3v4 game for the medal. Page maybe does not look so good when there is a 3-way tie for 2nd place like in this year's World but it is clearly the best format.

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Old Post 04-09-16 12:17PM
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CURLER1
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Brandon
Posts: 562

I remember the Brier was in the east. Could not tel you the year. Russ Edwards and Vic Peters ended with the same record. I believe Peters won over Howard in the round robin, but they gave Howard first place. There was a big controversy. I guess is wouldn't be hard to figure out with the year Vic was at the Brier. Anyway, after that they changed the playoff format.

I think they had a draw to the button for first which Russ won, so he got first place. But, since Vic had beat Russ in the round robin, many thought he should have been first.

Last edited by CURLER1 on 04-09-16 at 07:21PM

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Old Post 04-09-16 12:20PM
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Prawnpuller
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 45

Re: Re: Re: Why is Page Playoff Preferred?

quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs


Exactly -- which is why Page format is so much better than the 1v4/2v3 playoff for determining the champion. On the other hand, the loser of the Page semi should get the bronze medal and not have to play the loser of the 3v4 game for the medal. Page maybe does not look so good when there is a 3-way tie for 2nd place like in this year's World but it is clearly the best format.



Agree ..the loser of the 3 vs 4 game should be eliminated from any medals.
Only sour note is the bronze medal game which likely satisfies the tv networks and fills the void on the final day.


Two things can happen.........One is bad

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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
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In Prizzi's Honour, Jack Nicholsan says "If he was so #%#%# good, why is he so #%#%*% dead"? If Page Playoff is so good, why does no other major, and a tiny percentage of minor sports use it? In a "them or me" case, if the vast majority is with "them" then it probably is you!

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Old Post 04-09-16 02:21PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

How many major sports play a round robin and then advance 4 teams to the finals? Hard to have a Page playoff without that.

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Old Post 04-09-16 03:00PM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 61

quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
How many major sports play a round robin and then advance 4 teams to the finals? Hard to have a Page playoff without that.


Football, hockey, baseball, basketball all play a round robin. It is called the regular season

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Old Post 04-09-16 05:15PM
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Frozencanuck
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
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Posts: 61

Sunday summary

On Sunday Denmark gets a second chance to win Gold. On Sunday Japan gets a second chance to win Bronze. In keeping with the spirit of Page Playoffs, the loser of the second chance gold game should have to play the winner of the second chance bronze game so there can be a second chance Silver game. Furthermore the loser of that game should have to play the loser of the second chance bronze game, so that we can be really sure who wins bronze. Oh, and what is the emoji of biting sarcasm

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Old Post 04-09-16 05:22PM
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melnycm
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 4

???

I, the author, have not read one good reason to keep the Page Playoff format (Curling Federation). Consider this scenario for the 2016 Worlds. Canada has beaten Denmark twice yet Denmark is still alive in the tournament?? Denmark has a good chance to beat the US in the semi-final to give them a 3rd crack at Canada in the final. If Denmark wins, they beet Canada once in 3 matches but the one win was when it counts the most - the final. Does this make sense? I say no. In a conventional playoff, Denmark(#2) would have played the #3 seed fm the RR just to get a second shot at Canada in the final. The generous, but lacking, Page format gives them 3 chances to beat Canada - hardly fair. Dump the Page and leave it to club fun tournaments where it belongs.

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Old Post 04-09-16 06:44PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

Re: Sunday summary

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
On Sunday Denmark gets a second chance to win Gold. On Sunday Japan gets a second chance to win Bronze. In keeping with the spirit of Page Playoffs, the loser of the second chance gold game should have to play the winner of the second chance bronze game so there can be a second chance Silver game. Furthermore the loser of that game should have to play the loser of the second chance bronze game, so that we can be really sure who wins bronze. Oh, and what is the emoji of biting sarcasm


Would you feel the same if Canada had lost to Denmark in the 1-2 game or would you think that Canada deserved a second chance after winning the round robin with only 1 loss?

No question that the bronze medal rematch is a joke but the championship game makes sense.

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Old Post 04-09-16 07:07PM
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BDure
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Vienna, VA
Posts: 90

I've been lobbying for the Page playoff in Major League Soccer for years. I think it's a great way to reward teams for their round-robin finish. You don't just clinch a playoff spot and ease off the throttle -- you need to get into the 1-2 game.

I do agree that the bronze medal game is a bit silly.

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Rock Your World
Swing Artist

Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 306

quote:
Originally posted by CURLER1
I remember the Brier was in the east. Could not tel you the year. Russ Edwards and Vic Peters ended with the same record. I believe Peters won over Howard in the round robin, but they gave Howard first place. There was a big controversy. I guess is wouldn't be hard to figure out with the year Vic was at the Brier. Anyway, after that they changed the playoff format.

I think they had a draw to the button for first which Russ won, so he got first place. But, since Vic had beat Russ in the round robin, many thought he should have been first.


That brier was the 1993 Brier in Ottawa.. 4 teams Manitoba..Ontario..Northern Ontario.. and BC all finished tied for 1st in the RR with a 8-3... At that brier their was a 3 team playoff format.. so all 4 teams played in a semifinal tiebreaker format.. Manitoba was seeded 1st and in their 1st game they lost to Ontario and BC beat Nortern Ontario.. The 2 losers Manitoba and NO played each other..Manitoba lost so they were eliminated and Northern Ontario was in the semifinal.. Ontario beat BC so Ontario went directly to the final and BC went to the semifinal to play NO..

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Old Post 04-09-16 10:02PM
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Rock Your World
Swing Artist

Registered: Jan 2011
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From 1980 to 1994 the Brier was a 3 team playoff format.. The 1st place team in the RR went directly to the final and the 2nd and 3rd place team played in a semifinal..

Lately it is becoming much more common the winner of the 3-4 game winning the Brier... 4 out of the last 7 years the winner of the 3-4 game won the Brier..( 2010..ALberta.. 2013..Northern Ontario... 2015.. Team Canada.... 2016.. Alberta)

Koe has had to win his 3 briers the hard way... 2010 and 2016 had to come through the 3-4 game.. And in 2014 lost the 1-2 to BC and had to win the semifinal against Quebec and win the final against BC to win

Last edited by Rock Your World on 04-09-16 at 10:14PM

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Old Post 04-09-16 10:11PM
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Stumpy
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Feb 2016
Location: Ontario
Posts: 44

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
In Prizzi's Honour, Jack Nicholsan says "If he was so #%#%# good, why is he so #%#%*% dead"? If Page Playoff is so good, why does no other major, and a tiny percentage of minor sports use it? In a "them or me" case, if the vast majority is with "them" then it probably is you!


The mens curling at the 2010 Olympics is exactly why I think the Page is by far the best system. Canada went 9-0 and Sweden went 5-4 and they played in the semi-final, winner take all. Then in 2014 Edin went 8-1 and was knocked out in the semi by 5-4 Norway. Why even bother with a full round-robin if you're going to do that? Gives teams incentive to play hard every game. There needs to be a benefit for a team that runs through the round robin with 0 or 1 loss.

Also, many sports use a page playoff system, just not major ones to North America. The 2 largest sports in Australia (AFL and NRL) both use a much more extreme version of the Page system (8 teams) with 2nd chance opportunities for the first 4 placed teams. If the NFL ever went to 8 playoff teams I'd love them to do this.

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Old Post 04-10-16 12:02AM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 247

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck


Football, hockey, baseball, basketball all play a round robin. It is called the regular season



No. No they don't. NFL football teams only play 13 unique opponents and don't play the other 16 teams. NHL does play each opponent, but not in an equal number of games. MLB baseball doesn't play each team. No idea about nba. None of them play a regular season where you only play each opponent once. Also, the playoffs are a best of 5 or 7 games, so there are still chances to lose a game, and advance. Any other illogical comparisons you'd like to make?

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Old Post 04-10-16 02:48AM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 247

Re: ???

quote:
Originally posted by melnycm
I, the author, have not read one good reason to keep the Page Playoff format (Curling Federation). Consider this scenario for the 2016 Worlds. Canada has beaten Denmark twice yet Denmark is still alive in the tournament?? Denmark has a good chance to beat the US in the semi-final to give them a 3rd crack at Canada in the final. If Denmark wins, they beet Canada once in 3 matches but the one win was when it counts the most - the final. Does this make sense? I say no. In a conventional playoff, Denmark(#2) would have played the #3 seed fm the RR just to get a second shot at Canada in the final. The generous, but lacking, Page format gives them 3 chances to beat Canada - hardly fair. Dump the Page and leave it to club fun tournaments where it belongs.


You haven't read one good reason because you don't have an open mind. You also haven't provided a viable alternative. The whole point of the page is to give the best shot at having the top two teams in the final. It guarantees one will be there, while providing an advantage for the other top two team to be there. An Olympic style playdown doesn't guarantee anything, and leaves open the possibility neither of the top two teams gets gold or silver.

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Old Post 04-10-16 02:54AM
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Rock Your World
Swing Artist

Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 306

quote:
Originally posted by Stumpy


Then in 2014 Edin went 8-1 and was knocked out in the semi by 5-4 Norway.



It was Great Britain that beat Sweden in that semifinal

Last edited by Rock Your World on 04-10-16 at 08:47AM

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Old Post 04-10-16 08:45AM
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seattlecurler
Knee-Slider

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 9

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck


Football, hockey, baseball, basketball all play a round robin. It is called the regular season



And then, with the exception of Football, they play a 'series', usually best of 7, sometimes best of 5, where the impact of a single bad game is minimized. Which is why the Page Format.

And none of those 'regular' seasons are round robins. All the teams play a different set of teams a different number of times. So it's hardly equal. In fact, in Football, the schedule is set based on your previous years performance, so winners play winners.

So, stop comparing...

__________________
jim sullivan
granite curling club
seattle, wa

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Old Post 04-10-16 09:36AM
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johnnysmoke
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2002
Location:
Posts: 444

Re: Re: ???

quote:
Originally posted by Squiggsy


You haven't read one good reason because you don't have an open mind. You also haven't provided a viable alternative. The whole point of the page is to give the best shot at having the top two teams in the final. It guarantees one will be there, while providing an advantage for the other top two team to be there. An Olympic style playdown doesn't guarantee anything, and leaves open the possibility neither of the top two teams gets gold or silver.



Of course everyone has provided the alternative. And it is already used at the Olympics I'm told;-/ The best team at the end of the round robin plays the worst team that qualifies. 2 plays 3. If you can't win a semi-final game to get to the final, tough luck, better luck next year. What will most often happen will be the top team beats the 5-4, fourth place barely made it team, and the second best team will usually win their game as well. There you have it, the top two teams play for gold, the losers play for consolation Bronze.

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Old Post 04-10-16 09:57AM
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melnycm
Knee-Slider

Registered: Apr 2016
Location:
Posts: 4

Still Not Convinced

I still think a real single elimination playoff between the top 4 seeds is preferable to the Page. However, some of u are quite passionate for the Page. That's fine. We can agree to disagree but there's no need to get personal with insults such as I'm not keeping an open mind? That reader said I didn't provide an alternative, which I did in my original post and restated it above so I'm not sure what his point was really?
Back to the format. Playoffs should not be about second chances. Most credible sports playoff systems are single elim'n unless multiple game series are played.
Canada had to defeat Denmark 3 times to win the gold. They obviously were the best team but they also had to pull off some remarkable shots today. Even Russ Howard said the same comment today about having to beat Denmark 3 times. I guess I'm in good company and it appears at least the Olympics, where it counts the most, has it right in my view.

Not a knee-slider.

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