Registered: Nov 2004
Location: manitoba
Posts: 160

Curling now is heavily televised. The elite curlers are highly skilled photogenic and athletic. It is an Olympic sport. Why is the sport not getting traction with the general public? Curling clubs are struggling. Most of the curlers in Canada are over 40. Media coverage is sparse unless it is being covered by the network that is televising it. Don't expect highlights on TSN from the Players' Championship. Attendance at major events this year was very low. What is happening to the sport?

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Registered: Feb 2013
Location: Ontario
Posts: 192

People simply don't have the attention spans they once had. We live in an instant gratification, fast food culture. A parasitic nature has been created in people through modern technology. 300 + channels and your escapist desires are satisfied by the touch of a button.

Baseball was once number #1 in the US, the national pastime. Now its losing ground to the NFL and NBA because the game moves at too slow a pace (at least to the demo that's important to advertisers). It's tough to break down the game into exciting mathematical units for the highlight shows. Curling is a slow burn from start to finish. Add to the mix more diverse demographics and the equation is pretty simple. Darwinian laws of natural selection in full effect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


I think you hit it on the nose, hammerhead!

Curlers are pros. Most of them highly telegenic and polished media performers.

The golden age of gruff old bastahs and hard-core performers who were essentially ordinary men (and women) are by-gone days. I'm talking about the halcyon days with Matt Baldwin, Don Duguid, Hector Gervais, Garnet Campbell, PeeWee Pickering, Jack McDuff, Bruce Lohnes, Rick Folk, Sparkes/Storey, Pettapiece/Wood, The Wrench, Moosie Turnbull, Orest Meleschuk with the cigarettes stuffed into his face, etc. Those were the days. All the imperfections have been massaged out of the sport. Ice is mostly perfect, too!

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Registered: Nov 2002
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Posts: 612

Curling needs some characters. Like Guy Hemmings. Women's curling had Colleen Jones.

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Curling needs to refocus on the grassroots which made it such a success in the first place.

1) get the game back in the school system in a big way. CCA needs to restart a national high school championship and a collegiate one as well. These events stimulate interest and create leagues.

2) clubs need to sell the game aggressively to the non curling public.

3) keep the game affordable. Equipment has quietly been getting expensive. Beginners don't need $300.00 carbon fiber brooms,:$60.00 pants or $200.00 shoes. Someone needs to launch a line of cheap, start up equipment.

4) enough with funding teams. We've created a small group of semi-pro teams and an unfair playing field. Take away the funding and you'll have better fields in local cash spiels (and full spiels), more smaller cash events and an even playing field. Teams with 5-6 figure corporate sponsorship don't need federal handouts-i don't care who they are.

5) take the slams out of empty arenas, put them back in clubs, up the fields to 24 teams, nuke the round robin, put in a TKO that qualifies half the field , start it Thursday and finish on Sunday. Now you've got a great event. Stop pretending their Brier's. They never will be.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: manitoba
Posts: 160

quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
Curling needs to refocus on the grassroots which made it such a success in the first place.

1) get the game back in the school system in a big way. CCA needs to restart a national high school championship and a collegiate one as well. These events stimulate interest and create leagues.

2) clubs need to sell the game aggressively to the non curling public.

3) keep the game affordable. Equipment has quietly been getting expensive. Beginners don't need $300.00 carbon fiber brooms,:$60.00 pants or $200.00 shoes. Someone needs to launch a line of cheap, start up equipment.

4) enough with funding teams. We've created a small group of semi-pro teams and an unfair playing field. Take away the funding and you'll have better fields in local cash spiels (and full spiels), more smaller cash events and an even playing field. Teams with 5-6 figure corporate sponsorship don't need federal handouts-i don't care who they are.

5) take the slams out of empty arenas, put them back in clubs, up the fields to 24 teams, nuke the round robin, put in a TKO that qualifies half the field , start it Thursday and finish on Sunday. Now you've got a great event. Stop pretending their Brier's. They never will be.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 4002

quote:

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Originally posted by hammerhead



I agree with what you are saying. The grassroots is being neglected. More work needs to be done to engage the non curler. The elites will look after themselves. Maybe we should model some of our events similar to what running does. The Boston Marathon is an example on a huge scale where you have elites participating in an event along side the masses. Curling should try that. The schools need to be supported more from the provincial associations. Get the kids hooked and maybe some parents too.

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I watched a movie on Pay for View the other night, Nebraska. I thought it was a darn good movie with great acting, and it was nominated for an Oscar in the Best Picture category. But as I watched it I thought there's no way the younger generation would ever have the patience to sit through this movie and enjoy it. It's way too slow moving for them. They wouldn't take the time to appreciate the acting, the subtleties and the humour.

That's the way it is right now. The younger folks - they of the texting and Twitter world - want action and curling just doesn't fit the bill. I would love to say some brilliant curling initiative could capture the imagination of today's youth, but I don't feel that's even possible.

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480

I really, really don't understand the argument that keeps showing up on this forum: that interest in the sport is declining because of funded teams, unequal playing field, etc.

I think there's an important distinction between interest in the sport, participation numbers in clubs, and participation levels in provincial playdowns.

Posters here and elsewhere will often wring their hands in despair, saying that the lower numbers in provincial playdowns means the death of the game. I'd argue that it may just be the end of the game *as we knew it.*

Curling now enjoys the biggest TV viewership it ever has. Curling was the #1 most-googled sport during the last Olympics, up until the men's hockey final, and the Jones and Jacobs teams reached a level of saturation and awareness in the wider culture that likely no other teams have. An interview with a manager at the St. Vital club showed that every time JJ's on TV, parents will call the club asking how they can get their kids involved in curling. From a pure numbers perspective, it's hard to argue that interest in the sport is declining.

Millions of people watch NHL hockey, NFL football, the Olympics, etc. with the understanding and appreciation that THEY WILL NEVER REACH THAT LEVEL OF PLAY IN THE SPORT. That's why we are watching them on TV - it's the very best in the world doing what they do best. Curling's been able to find some bigger prizes - larger purses at the Slams and Canada Cup, and that big prize of an Olympic medal - and that's forced better athletes to reach a higher level of competition than ever before. Go back and watch the 2002 Brier final archived on curlingtv.ca between Ferbey and Morris and see how dramatically the strategy, shotmaking, conditions, and equipment have changed in just over a decade. The big prizes are pushing the competition to the game's highest-ever level.

So, yes, some people will not be willing or able to put in the time and effort needed to reach these lofty levels, and knock off the powerhouse elite teams in their provinces, and therefore skip out on playdowns. Maybe that's a new situation for curling, but it's definitely not a new situation for elite sport! Only a very small percentage of hockey players will reach the NHL. Millions of people around the world train for marathons, but less than 100 will complete the race at the Olympics. Amateur golfers harbour no expectations that playing in their club league or championship will send them to the PGA tour.

As to why club/recreational levels are dropping? I'd argue that has far more to do with societal and cultural changes than anything else. If the slams, etc. were really responsible for killing recreational curling, that would mean that club curlers are individually deciding "I can't compete with the highest-level players, therefore I won't play at all." That seems really unrealistic - make that statement in any other sporting context and people will laugh in your face. People don't quit golf because they aren't as good as Tiger. They simply enjoy the game!

Let's make recreational curling as open, accessible, and fun as possible to bring in the newcomers and the club players - yes, there will be fewer of them than in the past, because of generational changes in our society and culture. And the top-level events (Brier, Worlds, Slams, Olympics) will continue pushing the game to higher and higher levels, inspiring new generations and non-curlers alike.

So maybe our national championship doesn't look like this video http://youtu.be/QPEg9vppji8 any more. But curling is still a damn good time and a lot of fun. It's true, the kind of cinderella stories about some unheralded team reaching the pinnacle of the sport are becoming rarer and rarer. "Look, Brent Scales beat Stoughton in a provincial final! If it can happen to him, it can happen to me!" BUT for me, what's far more inspiring is the stories of teams like Jacobs and McEwen, who played on the tour and slams for years and years, getting totally beaten up by the Martins and Howards, suffering big financial losses, but driven by their love of the game and their desire to reach the highest levels. I see young teams like Bottcher making their slam debuts right now, getting absolutely pummelled in competition, but obviously loving the experience and learning huge strategy lessons that will one day lead to them knocking off the top dogs if they continue putting in the time and work.

I'd really love to hear Gerry and the guys address this subject on a future Around the House podcast as this attitude seems to be a pervasive undercurrent through many of the forums here. Are people just grumpy because some teams are now better than they are? What's the real motivation here?

Thanks and congrats to anyone who actually made it through all that. /endofrant

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Registered: Feb 2007
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Posts: 631

Well said doubletakeout.

I don't agree with the premise here. Here are two recent examples to show that interest in terms of ratings is still pretty high if not as high as it's ever been:

http://bobweeksoncurling.blogspot.c...tv-numbers.html

http://www.tsn.ca/curling/story/?id=447319

It does appear to be true that there are less people going to watch these events in person, but I think this has more to do with the fact that curling has become such a great TV sport, rather than a significant decline in interest.

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Registered: Mar 2006
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Excellent rant doubletakeout. I agree with everything you said.

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Agree with the previous two posters.

A few too many people on here like to wail about the doom of curling because there are the 8-10 elite teams in Canada that us club curlers could never beat due to their funding/commitment/training. The argument that "the elite curlers are too good and if they were out of shape, smoking and less skilled more people would be interested in curling" is hilarious.

I would safely argue that at least 90% of people do it for the enjoyment, friendship, social and exercise aspects of the game and not because we are trying to be the next Olympic champions.

Are numbers down for teams trying to qualify for provincial playdowns? If so, I could care less. The health of the game relies on the viability of curling clubs. The viability of curling clubs rely, mainly, on the purely recreational curler.

One problem I do see is the lack of younger people in the sport. I'm 23, curl in a 24 team league and am the youngest person there. Granted that is a small sample size, but I think it's fair to say that curling clubs are populated mainly by the 40+ demographic. What happens in 10 or 20 years when many of those people no longer curl?

While there may be challenges in getting new, young people into the sport, it's foolish to equate the great talent and precision we see on TV on the weekends with a decline in recreational curling numbers.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Halifax
Posts: 59

I think it's a mistake, as others have pointed out on this thread as well, to blame decrease in curling numbers on the expansion of elite curling. I also think it's a mistake to blame it on "fast-paced modern life" or "short attention spans". I think the sport to look at for comparison is golf, not hockey, football, or basketball. Golf is a slow-paced, precision sport that does not require tremendous physical strength to play at least competently, and it is vastly more popular than curling both to watch and play in both the USA and Canada. About 6-9 % of the populations of both countries play golf (depending on statistics source) while 2% of Canadians curl (CCA). Golf has a huge audience on TV, and attendance at major events dwarfs that of major curling events. The elite golfers have visibility and incomes rivalling other huge market sports, and yet many more people take up golf and play regularly than curling. It helps of course for golf that in parts of the business world it has become something of a career necessity to play, because that's where a lot of business gets done. Curling appears never to have had that white-collar aspect so didn't grow the same way.

The cost issue is interesting, because curling remains incredibly inexpensive compared to many sports, especially when you consider the specialized facility needed. This season my club dues were about $450, and I played about 3 nights a week, thus probably 60 games. That's $7.50 per game. What's the green fee for any good golf course? Way more than that. My shoes retail for about $260, it's easy to find drivers for twice that. And that's for a single golf club, not the whole bag! Curling is very, very cheap compared to golf, and golf is still much more popular.

So what to do? In our club we focus on this problem at both the junior and adult levels. At the junior level we feel that our provincial association (NSCA) is doing a good job at developing competitive players, but that the junior programs turn into pyramids, squeezing out kids who don't have the talent or drive to become top-level. We have top teams in our club but we also have several levels of junior leagues that are designed to be recreational, as the adult leagues are, and we also start taking the juniors into the adult leagues at age 16 or so (provided they can behave themselves appropriately). At the adult level we have a 10 week beginner instructional program, followed by a novice league, followed by full integration into the regular leagues. We also run a lot of open houses for both adults and schools, and run a bon spiel only for adults with 5 years or less experience. It all adds up, our membership has grown from 260 to 360 in 5 years.

So I do think these problems in curling can be solved, but it has to be by the clubs focusing on teaching and recreation, and not worrying too much about the elite competitive players.

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 480

jwanzig, if I could, I'd reach through my computer and give you a big hug. Great to hear how you're engaging new players at your local club - and those huge volunteer efforts are what helps keep the game alive!

I think on the cost front, it's wise to state flat-out a harsh reality of recreational curlers - we're pretty cheap. How often do you see players in your club hauling out their old hog hair broom from the 90s that is shedding like crazy? When a decent replacement can be found for $50-150? And it never fails, as soon as live curling events are announced, posters here will complain about spending $20-50 on single draw tickets when other live sports tickets (football, hockey) cost 5-10x more! Like you said, club/participation fees for curling are lower than just about any sport out there, and offers a totally unique social experience at the same time. It's worth the investment.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: Halifax
Posts: 59

Thanks, doubletakeout, very kind of you. You're sure right about the cheap part--when our club tries to do fund-raisers (like membership raffles and the like) it's always a tough sell, even when you point out that the one ticket you're trying to get them to buy costs much less than than the $2/draw times 60 games = $120 they are spending over the year on 50/50 tickets!

I did also want to add, in response to ML's comments, that while watching the old videos of curlers like Hec Gervais "back in the day" is a lot of fun, and the game has changed a lot, I see the changes as mostly positive--especially the great increase in athleticism. Even the oldest generation of elite Canadian skips now (Martin, Stoughton, Howard) are really fit athletes, and I think for most newcomers, that's a really positive and attractive aspect about the game.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: manitoba
Posts: 160

I agree with the previous posts. The high end, elite level of curling is awesome. The curlers at the highest level are athletes and continue to take the game the game to higher levels every year. That legitimizes the sports place with other sports. That should continue on its path.

The curling side for the masses is not keeping up. For every club that is holding its own and promoting the sport positively in their community there are many others struggling. I know this is not an old issue but it is one that is going to create problems for the sport long term.

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The struggles at the various levels all have their own reasons. The attendance at the Slams (and Scotties this year) has been laughable and the biggest factors are cost, location/ travel and event promotion. Travel within Canada is expensive, flight cost too much and driving (in the middle of winter) just will not work for most of us for more then one event, if that. Add in Ft MacMurray where the nearest major center is a 5 hour drive away and the hotels are $200- $300 a night and you could go on a nice tropic get away. And they need to find a way to fill the seats, be it comps, pricing or school kids, get more locals in there.

As for the clubs, the struggles are far more extensive and challenging. The rural clubs here in Southern AB are either closed completely or only open for one or two bonspiels during the year. The farming communities are now small concetrations of large farms, with lots of new Canadians (Dutch, Mexican Mennonites) 30 years ago they were large concentrations of small farms and the local curling rinks were the hangout, this was also pre internet, pre satelite TV etc...

As for my club, for some reason keeping the numbers even/ flat from year to year is considered a success, while the junior numbers do increase. A new rink will be opening in the next few years and it will be interesting to see how that will effect things. Across the board, numbers are down (here anyways)in other recreational sports to Mens rec hockey, Golf memberships, ladies/ mens softball are all seeing a downward trend. Society is lazyier and the funds and committment are not there.

Some things we have done is a new to curling (rookie) league, after two years (max)you then move to one of the various regular leagues. The junior program has really grown thanks to involvement with the schools and some dedicated volunteers. Also 5 and even 6 man teams have been encouraged in order to help maintain memberships as once January hits there is a regular rotation of members heading south.

Increasing memberships will be a grind for clubs for years to come (if not forever). The age base continues to rise and there are far more options out there. Things cost more.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manitoba Legend


I like the idea of a rookie league. Questions? 1. How do you recruit the rookie curlers and 2. Do they receive any training or mentorship?

What province btw?

And good luck with a good idea!

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^^ I got signed out again

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Another idea for increasing memberships is having a referral type discount for returning members who bring one or more new curlers with them. I don't remember if our club did this or not. If a team splits with two players each forming two new teams, bringing two new players each, so four new players in total, why not let the two returning players play for 1/2 price?

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Registered: Feb 2011
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Posts: 272

The collapse of curling in rural Canada started a long time ago, because rural Canada itself collapsed. Where did the people go? To cities, fuelling its curling boom 40 years ago. Now the city clubs are consolidating as that cohort ages out.

Cities aren't getting smaller. Go out and walk around your medium to large city if that's where you live. Count the non-white people, which is a good proxy for "not born in Canada".

Count the non-white people in your curling club and there's your answer right there.

Things come in and out of fashion which swells participants beyond its base market. Curling is consolidating to its base market. The fancy club that includes curling was an historical anomaly. The standalone curling club accessible to grass roots participants will be here for a long, long time to come.

95% of all curlers have been, are, and always will be essentially hopeless at the game with no interest in competing at high levels.

Televised curling has never been better, even in the past 4-5 years. Want to see some truly terrible televised curling? Go watch the 2010 Women's Olympic Final. At the time I was on the edge of my seat, but looking back...holy crap was that bad.

Boxing and horse racing used to be far more popular than baseball, now they are in decline. Soccer is big with kids in Canada but adult soccer is not growing. Cricket is likely booming as a percentage but not in raw numbers. The most popular spectator sport in the 1880s and 1890s in the US was race walking for God's sake. Snooker was massive in the UK for about 15 years up to the early '90s and now it's back to its base market again.

I'll tell you the last thing that affected the popularity of any of these sports: any action taken by any of their governing bodies ever, so get that nonsense out of your head.

If curling does ever collapse it will be Manitoba Legend's fault due to his love of JJ being too damn high.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ngm
95% of all curlers have been, are, and always will be essentially hopeless at the game with no interest in competing at high levels.

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You can blame the CCA for alot of this. Here is a good example. I played in a province that is going to be relegated. Next year I wont play next year because of this. Main reason is becasue of the two weeks off I will need if we happened to win. Boss wont allow it thats for sure. Wouldnt even ask.

The sad part is that I've been a loyal player for over 20 years. Paid my dues. Had a few good finishes in Provincials. Would love to keep going but we just cant compete now that the CCA is turning the Brier into another Slam event. Sad part is my kds probably wont play now either.

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Registered: Feb 2011
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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
You can blame the CCA for alot of this. Here is a good example. I played in a province that is going to be relegated. Next year I wont play next year because of this. Main reason is becasue of the two weeks off I will need if we happened to win. Boss wont allow it thats for sure. Wouldnt even ask.

The sad part is that I've been a loyal player for over 20 years. Paid my dues. Had a few good finishes in Provincials. Would love to keep going but we just cant compete now that the CCA is turning the Brier into another Slam event. Sad part is my kds probably wont play now either.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Toon Town
Posts: 106

Curling at my club has been in a slow steady decline for 10 years now. Each year there is more and more open ice. This has nothing to do with the elite curler, but every thing to do with there being more to do.

Curling is not in the schools anymore and there are fewer and fewer young curlers taking up the sport. Our city's curling body, CurlSaskatoon has a great program called Ride to Curl, where rides are arranged to get the kids to the rink. It is a great program that needs to expand.

Our Provincial body if they are aware of the problem of declining curling numbers, seem to be lost. I have not heard of any plan to promote the game from them. They are great at putting on competitions, but fewer and fewer teams are entering them.

Pretty sad to see the game I love so much decline the way it has. Our city is busting at the seams with people moving in, but we have gone from 6 clubs down to only 4, and rumours have it that one more club is in trouble.

Sad

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