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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M5 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 7:00pm CT
Fitzgerald Final
Guentzel (10) Watch Live Curling!
Cenzalli Final
Rose (10) Watch Live Curling!
Church Final
Lannoye (10) Watch Live Curling!
Hebert Final
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W: New Holland Canadian Junior Championships
Fort McMurray, AB
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Draw: 10 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm MT
ON (Acres) Final
MB (Hayward) (10)
NO (Dubinsky) Final
NS (MacNutt) (9)
QC (Fortin) Final
MB (Terrick) (8)
PEI (Lenentine) Final
SK (Pomedli) (10)
NO (Toner) Final
NB (Forsythe) (10)
NT (Skauge) Final
AB (Deschiffart) (8)
ON (Markle) Final
AB (Beaudry) (10)
NL (Locke) Final
NS (Blades) (10)
W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: W4 -- Wed, Mar 27 -- 2:00pm CT
Scheel Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Pekowitz Final
Berg (9) Watch Live Curling!
Schapman Final
Johnson (10) Watch Live Curling!
Giroux 12  Final
Viau (9) Watch Live Curling!
M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
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Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
Lott/Lott Final
Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
W: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
Schwaller Final
Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
Delorey Final
Lockhart (EE)
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06-24-15 10:59AM
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nicecontroleasy
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

Registered: Feb 2015
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quote:
Originally posted by Justintwiss
So lets pretend for a minute that I like the idea of 2 pools of 8 at the brier. Now the 16 teams will be seeded. If Mike is there and Jacobs is there they will be seeded 1-2. Pretty much a sure thing. So as a fan of curling, I want to see that game. But I wont get to because they are in 2 seperate pools. They might not get to play at all. So you cant Market that game to the fans leading up to the brier because it might not happen at all. In a true round robin at least you will get that game at least once, possibly 3 times counting playoffs.

Also with the pools you always get one pool of "death" and one weaker pool. So if you win the weak pool do you really deserve to be the 1 seed going into playoffs when you'd probably be in a tie breaker game in a full round robin?



I have to agree with you. No matter how well seeded there will always be a level of inequality in each pool and it's impossible to avoid. For example, a high seeded team(s) might be having a terrible week and weakens that pools depth. In a full round-robin nobody hides from anybody, everybody plays everybody, AND you can market the heck out of marquee match ups well ahead of time. Like you said, some great battles may not happen.

I'm struggling with the 2 pools idea. In fact I hate it.

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06-24-15 12:11PM
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bpm
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Since everyone is jumping to the Pool conclusion...I'm surprised no one has mentioned the "Championship Pool" format currently in use at the Junior Nationals. If you're unfamiliar with the format, look it up as it is unconventional but rather effective.

No, it doesn't force every team to play each other. But rather the teams start in two pools, and top teams are re-seeded into a Championship Pool after a certain number of games. The top teams who haven't played each other yet then do so, and the top teams in this Championship Pool make the playoffs. So ALL top teams play each other [and yes, the teams not in the Championship Pool continue playing games amongst themselves, having already lost enough games by then that playoffs are out of reach already anyway].

On one hand, I'm sure a first-time team might be disappointed to miss out on the chance to play against one of their idols. But on the other hand, a developing team from a new region (let's say Nunavut for example) would probably be OK playing their last few games of the tournament against incrementally better opposition (meaningful for development) rather than a late game vs McEwen/Jacobs/Other relentlessly fighting for a playoff spot (painful).

No idea if they are or would consider this as an option (or if they'll even go to Pools!) but I think it's worth a look.

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06-24-15 12:39PM
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Justintwiss
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correct me if im wrong here because im not 100% sure,

In the junior format to advance to the playoffs its only your record against the other teams in the championship pool. Right?

So for example, a team could end up 7-4 for the week and in 4th or a tie breaker in current format. Lets say they lost to the "better teams". But that same team would be 0-4 in the championship pool and miss the playoffs all together.

And would still equal the same number of games/draws for the week. Or close to it, So why not just keep a normal round robin?

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06-24-15 01:16PM
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bpm
Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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I will correct you...

Point #1:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ 2015...bin_Standings_2

Have a look at the 2015 Junior Women's.

In Pool B, Corryn Brown of BC was 6-0 in original pool play. Justine Comeau of NB was 3-3. Both made the championship pool.

Within the championship pool, BC went 1-3, and NB went 3-1. NB were clearly better once they arrived at the championship pool. But does this mean that BC's 3 wins against the other teams from Pool B that made the Championship Pool should be worthless?

Rightfully, BC's aggregate record of 7-3 qualified them for the playoffs, while NB missed on aggregate record of 6-4.

Point #2:
The Pool system absolutely saves draws.

Again, using the 2015 Junior Womens' as an example,

1. NO, YK, and NU all avoid playing BC, NS, SK, NB (12 games)
2. PE, NL, and NT all avoid playing AB, ON, QC, MB (12 games).

That's 24 games eliminated (5 or 6 draws depending on the number of sheets) versus a normal round robin where every team plays every team.

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06-24-15 02:25PM
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prairie guy
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quote:
Originally posted by nicecontroleasy


I have to agree with you. No matter how well seeded there will always be a level of inequality in each pool and it's impossible to avoid. For example, a high seeded team(s) might be having a terrible week and weakens that pools depth. In a full round-robin nobody hides from anybody, everybody plays everybody, AND you can market the heck out of marquee match ups well ahead of time. Like you said, some great battles may not happen.

I'm struggling with the 2 pools idea. In fact I hate it.




These are good points that I had thought of too so I'm glad you posted this. I guess the anti relegation crowd got their wish which is too bad. And if it goes to two pools this is much much worse than relegation. The bottom teams will be really bad and then the Brier and Scotties may not be the best way to determine our rep at the Worlds.

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06-24-15 02:35PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry
You could allow the teams who qualify via CTRS berths to still be named after their province. Nothing wrong with Alberta 1, Alberta 2, etc.

As for reasoning, Curling Canada receives a large portion of their funding based on World Championship and Olympic Medal results. By leaving quality teams at home for the National Championship, they're missing out on important development opportunities.

Curling Canada needs to be able to balance the history and tradition of the Brier/Scotties with the demands of high performance. This solutions begins to fit into both categories that should keep everyone happy.



Going to have to disagree with you Gerry.

The idea of a CTRS berth and being called Manitoba (or whatever province) 2 just doesn't sit well for me. You didn't win the berth for that province... and you're not really representing that province.

But that's my whole problem with the idea of CTRS berths at the Brier or Scotties... it changes the events in a way which doesn't balance their history and tradition. Qualifying for these events, through a provincial championship, is and should be a big deal.

And no, I'm not a big fan of the Team Canada concept, but I can live with it more than CTRS berths. I don't mind cutting the returning champion a break.

More strict high performance events, to be honest, are something that we really don't need at this point. We have the Canada Cup and the various Slams that already allow for a stricter high performance environment. Canada seems to do fairly well at the Olympics of late, and while we haven't won Worlds lately... who cares? We always seem to be in the mix, and those events are not what makes the general public interested in curling.

I really do not want to see curling in Canada turn into something that we see in other curling nations, where it's all about the "Gold" and nothing about the traditions or grassroots of the sport. Most of those other countries do not have the storied history the sport has here.

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06-24-15 04:04PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


Going to have to disagree with you Gerry.

The idea of a CTRS berth and being called Manitoba (or whatever province) 2 just doesn't sit well for me. You didn't win the berth for that province... and you're not really representing that province.

But that's my whole problem with the idea of CTRS berths at the Brier or Scotties... it changes the events in a way which doesn't balance their history and tradition. Qualifying for these events, through a provincial championship, is and should be a big deal.

And no, I'm not a big fan of the Team Canada concept, but I can live with it more than CTRS berths. I don't mind cutting the returning champion a break.

More strict high performance events, to be honest, are something that we really don't need at this point. We have the Canada Cup and the various Slams that already allow for a stricter high performance environment. Canada seems to do fairly well at the Olympics of late, and while we haven't won Worlds lately... who cares? We always seem to be in the mix, and those events are not what makes the general public interested in curling.

I really do not want to see curling in Canada turn into something that we see in other curling nations, where it's all about the "Gold" and nothing about the traditions or grassroots of the sport. Most of those other countries do not have the storied history the sport has here.



i agree with everything you say. sadly though it seems like, with the way curling canada is going that the worlds being all about gold has already happened.

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06-24-15 04:53PM
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JustAnotherHack
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


i agree with everything you say. sadly though it seems like, with the way curling canada is going that the worlds being all about gold has already happened.



Well, since it's not going to happen until 2018, there is still is time to talk to our associations and let them know what we think.

If they don't listen... we'll we can say we tried and then tell them off when the time comes. And maybe then we can start at the grassroots and look at separating it from the competitive side of the sport.

I've had a thought in my head to split off high performance (or professional if you prefer) side of the sport from the grassroots and developmental side and form two affiliated associations. I didn't say it was a good idea but... it seems like the two sides are often at loggerheads with each other. Other sports have amateur and professional sporting associations, and they do work together (the professional side of things needs the amateur for proper development of new athletes), so why not curling?

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06-25-15 10:17AM
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milobloom
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Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack



I really do not want to see curling in Canada turn into something that we see in other curling nations, where it's all about the "Gold" and nothing about the traditions or grassroots of the sport.



I spoke to a consultant during the recent Curling Summit who explained to me that it's not Curling Canada, but the current Federal government that has put emphasis (IE. Money) on winning medals. Subsequently, many sports (not just Curling) have all been gearing their efforts and support around that, and less on grassroots development or participation (which is what sport should be about, Olympics is just an overhyped exhibition run by criminals who are slightly less corrupt than FIFA, IMHO).

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06-25-15 01:03PM
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J-Ho
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Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:
Originally posted by insideout
[QUOTE]Originally posted by J-Ho
Regardless of how this plays out, the fact that they got rid of the relegation system is the significant victory here. From its very inception, to how they treated the relegation round curlers as second-class citizens, the concept was a bad idea from the start. Possibilities for a 16th team to make it two even pools?:

Northern Alberta
Toronto
Ottawa
Canada Cup Winner
Leading CTRS Leader
Team J-Ho

Just suggestions...
JH
[/QUOTE

Qualifying a team through points might backfire if Gushue gets in and Newfoundland sends another rep #nottoodeep



It might help that OTHER team Newfoundland had playdown this year though...
JH

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06-25-15 03:54PM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by milobloom


I spoke to a consultant during the recent Curling Summit who explained to me that it's not Curling Canada, but the current Federal government that has put emphasis (IE. Money) on winning medals. Subsequently, many sports (not just Curling) have all been gearing their efforts and support around that, and less on grassroots development or participation (which is what sport should be about, Olympics is just an overhyped exhibition run by criminals who are slightly less corrupt than FIFA, IMHO).



so its basically that stupid own the podium program that was implemented thats the reason for these decisions?

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06-25-15 04:31PM
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milobloom
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


so its basically that stupid own the podium program that was implemented thats the reason for these decisions?



That's not to say that the organizations aren't also responsibile, but the financial drivers certainly influence behaviour.

Another example, apparently Tennis Canada feels that because they have 2 well know athletes (Raonic and Bouchard) who are succeeding, the sport is healthy, when it's really not the case.

Studies have shown that success at the top level has no influence on the number of participants in a sport. If we want more curlers, gold medals aren't the way to generate them.

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06-25-15 06:12PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by curlo
So maybe not CTRS but Canada Cup winner qualifies. Canada Cup winner qualifies directly and doesnt have to play their province.



While I'm not entirely sold on a CTRS berth for the new, 16 team Brier and Scott fields, if it happens I am on board with this idea entirely. Move the Canada Cup to the first weekend in December so it takes place before the start of any provincial playdowns and have the top 8 CTRS men's and women's teams compete for the berth.

This way your ranking only gets to you to the CC and you still have to beat the supposed best 7 other teams first. And if you don't win, then you still have the second chance of your respective provincial playdowns.

Now, format of play in the new Brier/STOH. The fairest way is still a single pool RR. However, if there is a two pool format then at least lets seed the thing right. How? you ask.

Well, we go back to the CTRS and use it to seed the pools so teams are distributed equally based on their points. Which, it bears mentioning, are a combination of tour events and playdowns. And because Strength of Field Multipliers are used for both, the points are weighted equally and fairly to compensate for more difficult vs easy events/playdowns. This will also ensure a fair distribution of strong and weaker teams in each pool.

It does mean waiting until the last Provincial/territory playdowns are competed to seed the pools. But that would only add some wonderful drama and anticipation to the event.

I would also suggest that the page playoff remain and that the winner of each pool advances to the 1 vs 2 game (or the 1 vs 1 game I guess) and the next 2 best records, regardless of the pool, advance to the 3/4 game.

Yes, this could lead to lots of tiebreakers. But with only 112 RR games (requiring 22.4 draws on 5 sheets and 3 draws/day) you need 7.5 days to complete it. So starting on a Friday and then ending the following Friday is possible leaving time for TB's and then playoffs.

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Last edited by jamcan on 06-25-15 at 06:27PM

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06-25-15 09:06PM
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Gerry
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Location: London, Ontario
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quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherHack


Going to have to disagree with you Gerry.

More strict high performance events, to be honest, are something that we really don't need at this point. We have the Canada Cup and the various Slams that already allow for a stricter high performance environment. Canada seems to do fairly well at the Olympics of late, and while we haven't won Worlds lately... who cares? We always seem to be in the mix, and those events are not what makes the general public interested in curling.



You're free to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

As for "who cares?", the people who fund Curling Canada care. Winning medals is key to funding of the entire program and Curling Canada is trying to be proactive before winning medals becomes an issue.

No Women's world championship Gold Medal since 2008 and Men have now gone 3 years (Howard - 2012) since winning the Gold Medal at Worlds.

Whether we care or not (Since the Brier is #1), it matters to the people funding the whole thing.

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06-25-15 09:10PM
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Gerry
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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


While I'm not entirely sold on a CTRS berth for the new, 16 team Brier and Scott fields, if it happens I am on board with this idea entirely. Move the Canada Cup to the first weekend in December so it takes place before the start of any provincial playdowns and have the top 8 CTRS men's and women's teams compete for the berth.

This way your ranking only gets to you to the CC and you still have to beat the supposed best 7 other teams first. And if you don't win, then you still have the second chance of your respective provincial playdowns.

Now, format of play in the new Brier/STOH. The fairest way is still a single pool RR. However, if there is a two pool format then at least lets seed the thing right. How? you ask.

Well, we go back to the CTRS and use it to seed the pools so teams are distributed equally based on their points. Which, it bears mentioning, are a combination of tour events and playdowns. And because Strength of Field Multipliers are used for both, the points are weighted equally and fairly to compensate for more difficult vs easy events/playdowns. This will also ensure a fair distribution of strong and weaker teams in each pool.

It does mean waiting until the last Provincial/territory playdowns are competed to seed the pools. But that would only add some wonderful drama and anticipation to the event.

I would also suggest that the page playoff remain and that the winner of each pool advances to the 1 vs 2 game (or the 1 vs 1 game I guess) and the next 2 best records, regardless of the pool, advance to the 3/4 game.

Yes, this could lead to lots of tiebreakers. But with only 112 RR games (requiring 22.4 draws on 5 sheets and 3 draws/day) you need 7.5 days to complete it. So starting on a Friday and then ending the following Friday is possible leaving time for TB's and then playoffs.



Forgot to divide by 2, counting every game twice (for each team). Works out to 56 games with just the pools of 8. If you used the Championship Pool format from Juniors, that's another 16 games. 4 games against other pool teams.

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06-26-15 01:21AM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Forgot to divide by 2, counting every game twice (for each team). Works out to 56 games with just the pools of 8. If you used the Championship Pool format from Juniors, that's another 16 games. 4 games against other pool teams.



correct, my bad. That now means a 6 day, at worst, brier.

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06-26-15 06:10AM
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With 2 pools you can do 4 draws on each day just like european championships does it. Each team plays 2 games a day like they do now. groups are done on tuesday evening. wednesday and thursday is championship pool. play-offs friday through sunday.

did the CCA go to the 1 tie-breaker rule like in the WCF competitions right now?

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06-26-15 08:49AM
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misty1
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


You're free to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

As for "who cares?", the people who fund Curling Canada care. Winning medals is key to funding of the entire program and Curling Canada is trying to be proactive before winning medals becomes an issue.

No Women's world championship Gold Medal since 2008 and Men have now gone 3 years (Howard - 2012) since winning the Gold Medal at Worlds.

Whether we care or not (Since the Brier is #1), it matters to the people funding the whole thing.



winning medals will never be an issue for canada. the problem is that they arent winning gold, which is ridiculous. its like they are saying they arent proud of the way canada is performing at worlds recently. canada is still doing great at worlds and is still ranked number one.

it is a good thing that canada isnt the only country winning worlds.the gold is the only medal that counts mentality really is a horrible one to have and needs to stop.

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06-28-15 08:58AM
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Maybe this has been addressed, but what happens to an elite junior team that has a conflict with playing into the Juniors as well as say the Brier or Scotties?

Does one take priority over another or can I assume the athlete has to choose?

I see some schedule conflicts coming sooner than later on this.
How will this be handled?

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06-28-15 01:03PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


Forgot to divide by 2, counting every game twice (for each team). Works out to 56 games with just the pools of 8. If you used the Championship Pool format from Juniors, that's another 16 games. 4 games against other pool teams.



If the pools of 8 are properly seeded using current CTRS results then there is no need for a championship pool.

Why? Because both pools will be balanced since they are seeded not by a previous years result by a different team, but by the current representative teams own performance.

Thus taking into consideration when upsets happen in playdowns and a low ranking team rises to the occasion to best a high ranking squad. How many times over the years have we all seen this scenario when it happens and the upset team then tanks at nationals.

Using current CTRS stats ensures that all the teams are ranked properly at the start of the event and the pools are balanced. Eliminating any need for a second RR series.

Otherwise we may as well just continue with a single pool, 16 team RR.

__________________
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
Hunter S. Thompson

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