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12-17-14 11:36AM |
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biterbar
Drawmaster
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 695 |
quote: Originally posted by jhcurl
So the teams that go to Club Nationals have to play in timed games without any experience? Especially this year with thinking time being implemented the GNCC thought it was important to time the games. Also with 4 draws a day did not want to have the last draw be at midnight due to slow play.
I think some of the players have timing experience, the skip for sure as he medaled with Olson from Blackhawk a couple years back.
I don't think a team from Wisconsin has ever lost a game with time issues. So I assume Nationals are thinking time as well, was this Women's game the only problem out East?
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12-17-14 12:51PM |
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derekpap
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jun 2011
Location: Brandon, MB
Posts: 16 |
I stumbled across the thread, and being an official (canadian, level 2 provincial) and the scenerio caught my eye. Just wanted clarification: in case i read it wrong
Reineger, up 4, counting second shot rock , ran out of time before throwing their last rock.
Drummie was out of rocks when Reineger ran out of time. But cause Reineger ran out of time, but it was possible that Reineger could have thrown a bad shot that would have resulted in a Drummie tie. Drummie could not concede while Reineger was in control of the house? When Reineger ran out of time, it was 'game over', and they gave 5 points and the win to Drummie?
If that is what happened, not sure it would be handled the same way here. Now, it's possible my rulebook is different from yours. (I filtered out the non relevant stuff from my book)
Game clock operation 8 (1)(b) If the allotted time of a game clock expires before the teams final stone of the game has reached the nearer tee line, the umpire shall call a time out and apply the following penalty:
iii If the non offending team has no stones left to deliver, the end shall be considered over and the score for the end to be determined as per rule 14. Rule 14 just goes on to describe how to determine the score.
I would apply the rule as follows. Reineger ran out of time. end over, Drummie counts 1. Game over. Reineger win.
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12-17-14 01:02PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Your understanding of the game situation is correct (as I understand it), however, no, 5 points were not awarded to Drummie, the game was just forfeited to her upon clock expiration, as jhcurl cites below. (edited to clarify this)
We don't have that level of enforcement guidance granularity in our official rules in the US. All we have is "(n) Each team must complete its part of a game within the time given, or forfeit the game. If a stone reaches the tee line (hog line in wheelchair curling) at the delivery end before time expires, the stone is considered delivered in time." (page 36 of http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...pionships/Rules )
Of course, a good chunk of that could be because we have roughly...oh...3% as many timed games in a given season as Canada has...if that even. We only time Nationals (all age brackets and gender combinations), and some of the qualifiers for Nationals (witness the earlier discussion of the Wisconsin region not clocking their Club Nationals Regional), and an occasional other game for whatever random reason.
IMO that would be a good procedure to follow, however.
Last edited by AlanMacNeill on 12-17-14 at 03:14PM
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12-17-14 03:10PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
The five points "given" to Drummie was to make the scoreboard show that she won. There is no way to specify "ran out of time" on the scoreboard provided to GNCC by CZ and Gerry.
JH
wishing the WI teams good luck with the new timing system
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12-17-14 06:55PM |
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hkempenich
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Sep 2014
Location:
Posts: 10 |
quote: Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
We don't have that level of enforcement guidance granularity in our official rules in the US. All we have is "(n) Each team must complete its part of a game within the time given, or forfeit the game. If a stone reaches the tee line (hog line in wheelchair curling) at the delivery end before time expires, the stone is considered delivered in time." (page 36 of http://www.teamusa.org/USA-Curling/...pionships/Rules )
Alan, the WCF rules are exactly the same as USCA, except that it is page 31 of the WCF rule book. Canadian rules are different.
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12-17-14 10:07PM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
what are the chances that the USCA will notice this and change the rules like Canada so nothing this ridiculous happens again? Having said that, though, I still find it hard to believe the the "winning" team is apparently claiming this as a victory rather than forfeiting the game. Seems it has to be a pretty empty victory.
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12-18-14 10:02AM |
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runinrock
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2013
Location: 216
Posts: 41 |
Playing the game with the time clock is part of the game. Why would anyone expect a team to concede when their opponent is about to run out if time? And what she is supposed to forfeit later cause she feels bad her opponent couldn't complete the game in the allotted amount of time? It is not the fault of the opponent if the other team runs out if time. Besides.. Up 4 with the hammer no way you should allow the opponent to even have 4 rocks in play...
Anyone calling for a forfeit should really re-think their stance. This wasn't a league game, this was a competitive event and both teams knew the timing rules..
__________________
-Mike Moore
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12-18-14 11:44AM |
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ptg13
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 12 |
quote: Originally posted by runinrock
Playing the game with the time clock is part of the game. Why would anyone expect a team to concede when their opponent is about to run out if time? And what she is supposed to forfeit later cause she feels bad her opponent couldn't complete the game in the allotted amount of time? It is not the fault of the opponent if the other team runs out if time. Besides.. Up 4 with the hammer no way you should allow the opponent to even have 4 rocks in play...
Anyone calling for a forfeit should really re-think their stance. This wasn't a league game, this was a competitive event and both teams knew the timing rules..
It's like runinrock is speaking from sort of experience in this post and others in this thread...
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12-18-14 11:57AM |
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runinrock
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jul 2013
Location: 216
Posts: 41 |
Ha, simply the experience of actually PLAYING competitive curling games and not simply posting uneducated opinions on CZ....
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12-18-14 03:59PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
quote: Originally posted by runinrock
Playing the game with the time clock is part of the game. Why would anyone expect a team to concede when their opponent is about to run out if time? And what she is supposed to forfeit later cause she feels bad her opponent couldn't complete the game in the allotted amount of time? It is not the fault of the opponent if the other team runs out if time. Besides.. Up 4 with the hammer no way you should allow the opponent to even have 4 rocks in play...
Anyone calling for a forfeit should really re-think their stance. This wasn't a league game, this was a competitive event and both teams knew the timing rules..
A voice of reason from the madness. Thank you and it was their fifth game under the timing system. That is also why you make sure someone is watching the clock. It is not like they ran short of time in the 10th end by running the clock for 10 minutes.
JH
I have to go "back" there tomorrow, it was a nice break not to see that ice for 5 days.
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12-18-14 05:11PM |
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tuck
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2613 |
I've stayed quiet because I wasn't there, but I've stayed quiet as long as I can. It's about time we stop blaming the victim here. It has been implied repeatedly that the Plainfield team just dropped the ball and it all rests with them and their inability to do the most basic things.
The Potomac team did not shake after 8 ends when they were down by EIGHT with two ends remaining. That is their right, but is far from classy.
The Potomac team did not shake when their final rock came to rest without them laying the 4 needed to tie. They did not shake in the hope that Nina would play something stupid. That is their right, but it is far from classy.
30 seconds is a very long time and more than enough time to toss away a hammer shot. 30 seconds is a very, very, very long time to stand in stoic silence in the hope that the other team will not realize that you're playing them as suckers. It is not impossible to stand silently as your opponent wonders why you're not shaking, but it is far from classy.
So if the Potomac teams wishes to play in such a manner, it is their right. Curling, however, has a powerful karma force and things tend to come around.
As for some obscure rule that may or may not allow you to forfeit: I didn't know about it and I doubt that anybody on that sheet knew about it. Many times that I've conceded or received a concession or watched an early handshake, it has been after the trailing teams has thrown. I have no idea what this rule is supposed to prevent, but I imagine it is some total score BS.
So type as much as you want, but let's stop insinuating that the Plainfield girls were just plain idiots. Thinking Time is new...they had plenty of time...looking for that handshake is something that we all would have done.
I do agree that dbsdbs's call for a forfeit is a bit over the top. However, his comment that the Potomac girls now have a win that they cannot really be proud of was spot on in my opinion.
Nina, you keep going. You can win that thing.
Ben Tucker
Down 8 with 2 left? Seriously???
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12-18-14 05:35PM |
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melvin
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 57 |
quote: Originally posted by jhcurl
JH
I have to go "back" there tomorrow, it was a nice break not to see that ice for 5 days.
Funny jh - I was thinking the exact opposite earlier this week. It was nice to get back to making ice and stop playing so many pesky games!
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12-19-14 12:35AM |
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 812 |
Thanks for your comments Tuck. I understand that some may think my calling for a forfeit is "over the top" but I am an old-time curler and when I was taught about curling the spirit of the game was just as important as winning the game. Alas, apparently we have moved to a different world.
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12-19-14 09:29AM |
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Frykenstein
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 61 |
I've curled for almost 20 years, and I've run across my share of people who want (and try) to win at all costs, have a loose grip on etiquette, and don't embrace or apply the Spirit of Curling in ways that I would choose to.
Ann Drummie, who's been a clubmate of mine for a dozen years and whom I've played with and against many times, is not one of them. I have never seen her win or lose ungraciously, so I find it unsettling to see people imply that Drummie was knowingly and maliciously playing Team Reineger for fools. Or, for that matter, trumpeting the outcome Sunday as some kind of major victory. In fact, Ann Drummie is as low-key and humble in her victories, however earned, as anybody I've ever met.
Those of you who weren't there and don't know what was said, heard, understood, thought, intended, etc., but still are still willing to judge Team Drummie's actions--as you understand them from afar--would do well to re-read runinrock's recent post.
Drummie was down 8 after 8, but proceeded to take 4 and then come within 1 (admittedly ill-conceived and unlikely) shot of stealing to win the game.
Earlier in the event, two teams had already given up steals of 5. One of them was Reineger. And earlier on Sunday, Reineger had already lost to Drummie after giving up steals in no fewer than 4 ends.
So while a Drummie comeback was unlikely, it was not impossible. All things considered, Drummie's decision to keep playing after 8 and after 9 wasn't classless. It wasn't even irrational.
I don't know what either team was thinking in the final minutes of their tie-breaker. Under the circumstances, however, and given what I know of Ann Drummie, I choose not to assume--or wish upon her--the worst.
Michael Fry
Potomac C.C.
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12-19-14 10:17AM |
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nom de broom
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Jan 2012
Location:
Posts: 84 |
I absolutely back up Fry on his opinion of Ann Drummie, and I say that as a 20-year curler from Plainfield. My personal experience of Ann is that she is extremely quiet and introverted, and that is under "normal" non-playdown conditions. I wouldn't expect her to be chatty in the house at a regular bonspiel, never mind when she's trying to punch a ticket to a national event. Her not saying anything to Nina, IMO, was not malicious, it was simply a playdown skip deep in the pressurized, concentrated think space of her own head.
Of course I wanted Nina to win, but my "next best" outcome would have been Drummie heading off to the championships. Depending on fate and the curling gods, Ann theoretically still has a chance for that trip to Fargo. If she ends up in that position I will be extremely happy, as Ann has always exhibited both talent and class and will well represent the Spirit of Curling.
Edited to add:
Ann is so exemplary that if it was a opposing skip who was new to the playdown experience of clock management (say, for instance, me) I think she would have said something. While "thinking time" is new, as noted they had played with the new format all weekend. Additionally, Plainfield had a back end that's been through playdowns (and successfully won out to Various Forms of The Show). I think it is a safe assumption that Ann made the not-illogical assumption that Nina and/or her vice knew what was going on with the clock.
nom de broom
__________________
[Original Ray's] nom de broom
Last edited by nom de broom on 12-19-14 at 12:02PM
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12-19-14 02:56PM |
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slipandslide11
Knee-Slider
Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 4 |
Many years ago I worked as a timing official during club nationals. Out of the half dozen or so games I timed, one team and skip displayed sportsmanship far above the rest of the field. That team was skipped by Ann Drummie. Ann was always gracious on and off the ice and quick to thank all officials following games. I highly doubt that her character has changed since that time. USA curling is far better for having people like Ann on the ice.
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12-29-14 03:05PM |
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alGFunguy
Harvey Hacksmasher
Registered: Nov 2011
Location: moorhead, mn
Posts: 14 |
I don't see anything in the rules that don't allow you to concede your last rock... it should be an option for you (especially if your opponent is out of rocks). One could almost interpret this situation as mathematical elimination.
If I were the Nina team, I'd submit a request for ruling or a right to compete (grievance) to the the USCA for the gap in the rules.
Maybe the athletic committee can huddle up, discuss, take into consideration rules that actually cover a situation like this (Canada), vote, and make this right.
Sorry Ann.
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12-31-14 12:38PM |
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 140 |
Since this was a second-place game then it really doesn't matter, unless GNCC is getting two spots.
Anyone able to confirm signups and the number of berths each region is getting? I wasn't able to find anything on the new USCA website. Finding information is more difficult in general.
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12-31-14 01:16PM |
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AlanMacNeill
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 1064 |
Agree with MCC...a grievance would not be even remotely appropriate.
The "on ice" decision was correct, per the letter of the currently in place USCA rules as strictly read.
Ann Drummie had 4 stones in play, she was down four, therefore a tie was theoretically possible. Under the rules as they stand currently, you are not mathematically eliminated until a tie is not theoretically possible, so the game was live.
Per the rules, a team is strictly responsible for it's own clock. The punishment is draconian, for a reason. It was Nina's responsibility to recognize the situation and throw her stone away when Drummie did not concede.
Regardless of whether or not Drummie *could* concede, Drummie did not *have* to concede.
Once Nina's clock started, per strictest possible reading of the rule Drummie could not concede...do I think that rule has ever been enforced? Probably not, but I'll bet someone could prove me wrong.
As such, even if a grievance was filed, the on ice decision would almost certainly have to stand.
This doesn't discuss any sort shape or kind of "spirit of the game" etiquette and what would have been the "right" thing to do, just that the rules were interpreted correctly, per the current rulebook.
I still believe it would be a good idea to amend the rulebook to eliminate the loophole (Canada's rule seems good to me)...but that's not an indictment of the way it played out nor the players involved, just that I hope it never plays out that way again.
Hard loss for Nina. But, I'll bet my entire bank account she never loses a game like that again...
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12-31-14 02:25PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
quote: Originally posted by MCC_PE
Since this was a second-place game then it really doesn't matter, unless GNCC is getting two spots.
Anyone able to confirm signups and the number of berths each region is getting? I wasn't able to find anything on the new USCA website. Finding information is more difficult in general.
The late registration deadline for clubs is today. Should know all the berths on Monday.
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12-31-14 07:03PM |
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint
Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 140 |
Guess that would explain why signups aren't posted and this second place game could matter. Thanks for the clarification.
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12-31-14 11:53PM |
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SmokeyJoe
Hitting Paint
Registered: Apr 2006
Location:
Posts: 127 |
Eight point lead with two ends to go? No excuse for running out of time. This could be what's called a teachable moment.
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01-05-15 01:15PM |
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jhcurl
Super Rockchucker
Registered: Sep 2002
Location: US - CT
Posts: 1431 |
The list of regions sending teams to clubs is up. No extra spots on the men's side, extra spot to MOPAC on the women's side.
JH
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01-05-15 01:43PM |
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MiniMark
Hitting Paint
Registered: Jan 2012
Location: DeWitt, MI
Posts: 100 |
Can you post a link for the lazy people like me? That site is infinitely cumbersome.
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