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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
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Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
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M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Brauchli 12  (EE)
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W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 1:00pm ET
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Lockhart (EE)
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01-15-15 12:13AM
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dbsdbs
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Minnesota Club Championships

Apparently not much interest in club championship. 12 mens teams may sound like a good turnout but the championship is being held in St Paul are 10 teams are from SPCC, 1 from Four Seasons. Just 3 womens teams and 2 are from St Paul.

Just as point of comparison, MoPac has 16 mens teams and 5 womens teams playing down.

Last edited by dbsdbs on 01-15-15 at 12:19AM

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01-15-15 09:30AM
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mr. lucky
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Re: Minnesota Club Championships

Yeah, I remember when Minnesota had so many teams, they had regionals that lead to State.

To get back to that, I think one of two things has to happen. Either the USCA finds a way to make second tier championships a four day event instead of ten, or regions have to celebrate a State Championship with out the expectation that the winner has to go to Nationals.

Sorry Beads

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01-15-15 10:32AM
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biterbar
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Wisconsin had 8 mens teams and ZERO womens. A trip to Fargo in March for 10 days may be a factor but it seems only for the Midwest as Mopac and the GNCC have more interest with a much more expensive trip.

A four day 12 team triple knockout could be the answer.

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01-15-15 10:43AM
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MNIceman
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I agree, a shorter time frame for Club Nationals could be nice. Triple knockout with page playoff sounds good to me. You might even be able to throw in a consolation draw so the 0-3 and 1-3 teams could get another game or two in.

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01-15-15 10:52AM
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MiniMark
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3 KO? No way

One of the main reasons to play Clubs is to get to play a full RR. A week of just sleeping, eating, and curling? Yes, please! I wouldn't want to pay over $100 per person (with no food or drink included) go to Fargo, Madison, or even Two Harbors in the dead of winter if I was only guaranteed 3 games.

However, your point is well taken in that more clubs might be more likely to host a shorter competition. Interesting.

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01-15-15 11:42AM
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People ask me all the time why I am not signed up for clubs, or mixed or etc etc...the answer is simple. Money. In order to advance to Club Nationals, that is 2 nights in a hotel for regionals/drive time/time off work/gas etc. After you win that event, you have won the right to travel to (no offense) beautiful Fargo ND in the dead of winter...this is now 8 more nights in a hotel, a week off of work, food, drink etc. not to mention a $400 plane flight to just get there(and rental car)...After you win that event you are given a handshake and a useless trophy for winning a second tier event...I love curling as much as the next guy (and probably more), but i'd much rather spend my small amount of extra money on a million other things...i mean for the same price as playing Clubs (Regionals and Nationals), I could take a vacation with my wife to any number of places in the country that dont involve below zero temperatures....

commitment is one thing, being able to afford it is another...I think that you will find that most competetive players, especially younger players are in the same boat.

Now if you put the national event somewhere that is easily accessible to the majority of curlers (driveable, or cheap flights (minneapolis, chicago, madison, even boston,) you may see the numbers go up. I know clubs dont want to give up their ice which i totally understand, so it is hard to find places to host these events. And if you are going to club nationals just so that you can get extra games in then the event isn't nationals is it? it is just a bonspiel...right?

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01-15-15 12:21PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by runinrock
[B...After you win that event you are given a handshake and a useless trophy for winning a second tier event...the event isn't nationals is it? it is just a bonspiel...right? [/B]


This is why participation is down in states with a long tradition of competitive state playdowns to get to nationals. Not saying that the old system should still be in place, just that it drew a lot more interest from a lot more curlers. Couple that with the decline in the number of curlers playing for the "real" national championship because they know the deck is stacked against them and we have the future of competitive curling in USA... great deal for a very few curlers but no interest for most curlers. Which also is the reason why national championships are not being held in traditional curling areas. Newer areas with no history are interested in the idea of watching the nationals.. traditional curling areas not so much

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01-15-15 09:57PM
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dbsdbs
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Minn State Club playdown scores are available at
mncurling.org

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01-16-15 09:14AM
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biterbar
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quote:
Originally posted by runinrock
commitment is one thing, being able to afford it is another...I think that you will find that most competetive players, especially younger players are in the same boat.

And if you are going to club nationals just so that you can get extra games in then the event isn't nationals is it? it is just a bonspiel...right?



I agree with the cost factor. You haven't added matching coats and shirts etc.

As for it being "just a bonspiel", I don't agree. It does mean something. It isn't a "send your $240 before they hit 24 teams and your in" deal. Who pays all that money and vacation "so that you can get some extra games in"? GNCC, Mopac and some of the others do seem to take it more seriously than Minnesota and Wisconsin and I do believe it is a historical problem as dbsdbs stated. I went back and looked at the Wisconsin entrants and see 3 or 4 of the teams (Skips anyway) were past champions, so they see it as something they would like to do again. "Just another bonspiel" do not have ten team round robins and the feel of this event.

Look at the club champions, Larway, Kaufman, Birr, Fraboni, Brown, Armstrong, Farbelow, Running, obviously the title not "a uselsess trophy" to many.

Sure it is expensive and a vacation burner and maybe that makes participants lean to the older and wealthier, but I don't think that lessens the experience for those that pursue it. I would see it as a chance to experience the feel of a big time event while doing it with friends and a whole lot less time commitment. If it isn't your thing that's fine, but don't disrespect those who have made the commitment to earn a spot.

I would hate to think what your take is on the Arena Championships.

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01-16-15 10:25AM
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runinrock
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I didn't mean any disrespect to any participants of the event. I would love to play in it to be honest with you. I actually did play at the first ever Club National in St. Paul, but we signed up the night before becuase the playdowns and nationals were both 2 hr drives from home, and we had a free place to stay in both locales. It was fun, (and this was a while ago) but the level of play was fairly low, I would assume that the play has gotten much better over the years. And don't get me wrong, if I ever have the opportunity to play in the event again, I would be there to win first, and to have a great time second. Certainly not trying to disparage the event.

I was simply explaining the draw backs of having a 10 team RR that spans over 8 days in a location that is hard to get to. My comment about "just another bonspiel" was directed towards the attitude of just wanting to play "some more games", rather than having the attitude of trying to win a national event. I didn't want to insinuate that it was a waste of time or anything like that, I just meant if you have the view of attending so that you can play some games with your friends then you are treating it as "just another bonspiel" that's all i meant...

also, if you look at those past winners, look where the events were held and you will see that the more competitive teams that attend are usually close to home..also, if you ask the teams that you listed they would probably tell you the best part about winning was doing it with their friends from their home club, not the fact that they were "national champions".

not to go off topic, but the arena championships are exactly that, ARENA Championships...a great opportunity for players who play on ARENA ice to have a chance to play on well made-competitive ice, against similar competition levels (never attended this event so I don't really know much about it..)

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01-16-15 11:02AM
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dbsdbs
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List of past winners includes some pretty good teams... but it seems like those teams are no longer playing. Maybe it is because they are getting older or maybe it is because they have already won it? I do think interest was higher in traditional curling areas when this event began, not so much anymore.

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01-16-15 01:39PM
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AlanMacNeill
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I blame the development of the cash spiel circuit to a significant degree...

Previously, if you wanted *competitive, bring your A game* competition, you entered your region and hoped to win to Nationals.

Then it became Club Nationals...still, though, it was an outlet for "I want to measure myself against the best yardstick available" teams to do so, either as a "Can we step up to the 'Real' Nationals" for teams seeing themselves as up and coming, or as a "How would we measure up?" for those teams that didn't have that desire, but still wanted to bring their best and see.

Now, however, there's other options...there's 3-6 Cash Money On the Barrelhead bonspiels every weekend. Yeah, many of them are limited to the funded professional teams, but there's a AAA level where a team that wants to measure can do so...and more than once a season...and on weekends convenient to them.

Personally, what I think the USCA needs to do is spin off the Professional Game into a USPCA, sanctioned by the USCA (IE USCA remains the rules body, but the Pro Tour handles it's own matters, much as the PGA works with the USGA).

Then the USPCA can do it's thing, have it's professional circuit, and only care about The Best Of The Best...and the USCA can return to what it should be doing, helping clubs, promoting the social and recreational game, and the like.

In my "perfect" world, the USCA would remain the organizing body for curling, just as the USGA is for golf, but *choosing the olymmpic team* would be left to the USPCA.

And that would not have to kill Nationals. Consider...every single US Professional golfer tries like hell to qualify for and win the US Open Golf Tournament...yet there are still open qualifiers who play on the same course and the same rules. That paradigm makes sense for curling as well.

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01-16-15 02:37PM
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Alan,

That's "measure up to the yardstick" as long as you're not using a curling stick.

Seriously, I think they should allow the stick in Club Nationals.

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01-16-15 07:45PM
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dbsdbs
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quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill


Personally, what I think the USCA needs to do is spin off the Professional Game into a USPCA, sanctioned by the USCA (IE USCA remains the rules body, but the Pro Tour handles it's own matters, much as the PGA works with the USGA).

Then the USPCA can do it's thing, have it's professional circuit, and only care about The Best Of The Best...and the USCA can return to what it should be doing, helping clubs, promoting the social and recreational game, and the like.

In my "perfect" world, the USCA would remain the organizing body for curling, just as the USGA is for golf, but *choosing the olymmpic team* would be left to the USPCA.

And that would not have to kill Nationals. Consider...every single US Professional golfer tries like hell to qualify for and win the US Open Golf Tournament...yet there are still open qualifiers who play on the same course and the same rules. That paradigm makes sense for curling as well.



Interesting idea... Sounds a lot like what we have now except that it is really hard for USCA to help clubs, promote the social and recreational game, etc. when they are so focused on HP. It seems that taking this step would require more money, more cash spiels, etc for the USPCA. Not sure where that money is going to come from? But still an interesting idea.

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01-16-15 11:28PM
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Be careful of unintended consequences, gentlemen.

Any split (or even the appearance of a split) within the USCA could be viewed by the USOC as an opportunity to grant National Governing Body status to the new organization. With that designation goes all the USOC funding; a significant amount of cash.

Ben Tucker

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01-17-15 02:13AM
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So my question to you Tuck, would that be a bad thing for the 98% of US curlers who just want to curl and have a few cocktails after the game. The Olympics will be there either way to fill up Open Houses.

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01-17-15 09:02AM
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Bad thing? Tough question. I doubt I'm smart enough to answer it. Too many unknown factors can affect that future.

My gut tells me that we will have to remain united to achieve the future that I invision. Splitting into Grassroots/Social and Competitive branches is a division that might threaten that vision.

I invision a future that doubles our current membership and then doubles it again...and maybe a third time. I see programs that guarantee loans for dedicated facilities. I see a cash spiel circuit that rivals Canada. I see curling on television with regularity. I see the east coast centering on New York becoming one of the strongest curling centers in the entire world. Lofty goals. One that probably requires that we remain united...more united than we are now...certainly not less united.

Will a division endanger lofty goals or bring peace as each goes their own way? Heck, I don't know. I'm just plain not smart enough.

Back to the topic at hand:

Clubs? It is what it is. Poll the players past and present if you want changes.

Minnesota? I was going to go with Deuhs to upset one of my favorite curlers of all time, Norma O'Leary...then I saw that Norma has Sara Shuster at lead. I want Sara to get that Minnesota title so that so can rub it in Face's face.

I see Willmert is playing; fresh off this Big Spiel win. I ain't pickin' them. Too obvious. Stolt is playing, but his Men's team front end also has a team. Gimme Stolt's front end beating him in the Finals. I don't always cheer for front ends rising up in rebellion to overthrow their cruel overlords...but I am in this case. I bet even Pete Stolt would like to see that one happen. Then again: If anybody wants to give me good odds on transplanted North Dakota boys Darren Kress and Darin Holt (Nation Junior champs long ago), I'll bet on them in heartbeat. Gartner/Big Daddy Westberg??? Are they still alive? Isn't there a Senior event somewhere? Gibbs is even older, I think. Orvik is good. Brundidge is good. Really good field. Gimme the rebellious Ordway rink.

Ben Tucker

Last edited by tuck on 01-17-15 at 09:05AM

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01-17-15 11:04AM
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AlanMacNeill
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Any split (or even the appearance of a split) within the USCA could be viewed by the USOC as an opportunity to grant National Governing Body status to the new organization. With that designation goes all the USOC funding; a significant amount of cash.



Relatively easy fix to that, which is to make the USPCA recognize the USCA as the governing body via bylaws and binding contracts. Since the USCA would be setting up the USPCA, they can do that pretty easily, if they have the stones to do so.

But, tuck is right, this is now far afield from the MN Club Championships, Junior Men's, and all the other actualy stones on ice right now.

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01-18-15 12:46AM
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I think 7 of 12 MN teams could win any state in US. Pretty good field

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01-18-15 01:46AM
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dbsdbs
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Good field ...but to say that 7 of the 12 could win other states might be a bit much.

Wonder if fate is on Stolt's side? First Gibbs (1-3) steals 10th end to beat Cummings (3-1) and force Cummings vs Stolt tie-breaker and then Stolt steals 1 in 10th to win tie-breaker.

Should be good final 4.

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01-18-15 03:34PM
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Dominating performance by Team Gartner. Outscored opponents 66-22, won all 7 games by at least 5 points, trailed only twice all weekend [opponents scored 1 in 1st end of semis and finals]. No doubt about who should be the champ.

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Curling Scores

W: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: W7 -- Fri, Mar 29 -- 10:00am CT
Viau 4th
Pekowitz  Watch Live Curling!
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Johnson  Watch Live Curling!
Berg 4th
Berg  Watch Live Curling!
Schapman 4th
Scheel  Watch Live Curling!
M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
Eau Claire, WI
Teams | Scores | Standings | Playoffs
Draw: M7 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 8:00pm CT
Lannoye Final
Hebert (10) Watch Live Curling!
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M: Canadian Mixed Doubles Curling Championship
Fredericton, NB
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Draw: CF -- Fri, Mar 22 -- 1:00pm AT
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Walk/Muyr (8) Watch Live Curling!
M: Swiss Junior Championships
Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 3:00am ET
Caccivio Final
Brauchli 12  (EE)
Dryburgh Final
Ringgenberg (9)
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Thun, SUI
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Draw: CF2 -- Sun, Mar 24 -- 9:00am CET
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Oberson (9)
Blackham Final
von Arx (9)
W: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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Draw: 3 -- Sat, Mar 23 -- 11:00am MT
Stroeder Final
Delorey (7)
M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
Fort Smith, NT
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