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02-10-16 12:40AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Page playoff format

Page playoff format is bush league. Fewer and fewer curling organizations are using it. Here is the challenge. Name one other major or minor sport that uses it! The sooner the CCA dumps this the better.

Last edited by Frozencanuck on 02-10-16 at 11:59AM

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02-10-16 01:08AM
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Not sure why this ends up in the Manitoba thread. It's actually being used properly in the Viterra Championship and Scotties Provincials.

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02-10-16 12:03PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Page playoff.

The point I was trying to make was that Page playoff system should not be used at all. There is no real advantage to finished gn first. A playoff lose still gives the 1/2 loser a second chance. Again, I ask your readers to name another sport that uses the bush league system

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02-10-16 12:41PM
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And the first time that a team goes undefeated thru the RR and gets eliminated in the semis there will be a great outcry..
IMHO the page playoff is a fair way to crown a champion. The teams all know the playoff format before they step on the ice and it works just fine.

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02-10-16 12:47PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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If the issue with the page playoff system is that it removes the incentive to finish first because it confers no advantage, and besides, everyone gets a second chance - it sounds a lot like repechage. Wikipedia offers a number of examples of it's use across several sports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repechage

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02-10-16 12:50PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
And the first time that a team goes undefeated thru the RR and gets eliminated in the semis there will be a great outcry.


This may very well be true ... but was the original poster advocating single-knockout semifinals?

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02-10-16 01:05PM
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Re: Page playoff.

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
The point I was trying to make was that Page playoff system should not be used at all. There is no real advantage to finished gn first. A playoff lose still gives the 1/2 loser a second chance. Again, I ask your readers to name another sport that uses the bush league system


Australian football allows the top 4 teams to lose their first playoff game and still being able to win the Grand Final, while the 4 next teams are playing elimination game from the start. Page still gives top 2 teams a much better shot to win the tournament than straight Knock out. Still those teams earned their second shot by playing better than the rest of the field. It makes it that much important to finish 1 or 2.

If it's BushLeague, why do all provinces and territories use some sort of Page when they have 4 qualifiers? Page was created because they wanted to add one team but thought that top teams should be rewarded more.
I'm assuming that the team that starts with hammer wins 60% of the time in what follows and that the team will always choose hammer based on the asumption that having hammer wins you more games.

The top team has around a 45 to 50 percent to win (45 if they don'T get hammer in case of a 1/2 loss in Final 50 if they do, because some tourneys give hammer to winner of 1/2 some give it to the top seed no matter what) The team in second has 35 to 39 percent to win it.
The teams in third and fourth have respectively a 10% a 6% shot to win it.

Straight knock out would give top team a 36% the second team has about a 29% the third team has 19% and the fourth team has a 16% shot of winning.

So, finishing first does give you a massive advantage to win the tournament. I admit that it would be more fair if the teams in 1/2 would need to be beat twice to concede the tournament in a double elimination-style tournament, but it would be bad for TV networks to say oh we have to replay the final.

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02-10-16 01:17PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Not sure but if he is saying the winner of a round robin playoff is declared the champion then can you imagine if for example hockey or baseball declared there champions the top dog in regular season play the champion....same scenerio....In the page system in curling the number one team in RR play gets choice of rocks and hammer...that is a nice reward for Finishing 1st again the page imo is a big improvement over the old 1vs 4 and 2vs 3 for the semis..
Maybe we could improve the system by playing best of 7 in semis and finals like hockey LOL

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02-10-16 01:30PM
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Page playoff

World curling tour uses a single knockout playoff, as does Olympic curling, as does CFL, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, NBA, FIFA.........

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02-10-16 01:44PM
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I suppose we are all entitled to an opinion on this but I suspect if you took a poll of all the players involved they would agree with the page playoff system by a wide margin over any other system.

Kinda like the best of 7 myself...for example in Ontario Tankard old Glennie surely would have been worn down by the younger Epping.lol







Two things can happen........One is bad

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02-10-16 02:16PM
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Re: Page playoff

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
World curling tour uses a single knockout playoff, as does Olympic curling, as does CFL, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, NBA, FIFA.........


Well, you are only partially true with your sports. Most sports use a best of series which makes the single elimination in MLB, NBA & NHL not really a single elimination. (yeah I know MLB does have a single game for the wild card entry, but other than that is is best of 7).

Now the NFL is truly single elimination, but it rewards the teams with the best regular season by giving them first round byes, therefore they only need to win 3 games to win the SB rather than 4.

For curling, the page system rewards the top 2 teams for having a great round robin. I dont find this bush league, I find this rewarding for good play, and this encourages teams to go all out and be in the top two.

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02-10-16 02:23PM
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IMO the bush league part of it is the way it gives the second place team nearly the same chance that the first place team gets ... even if their round-robin records are very different.

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02-10-16 02:38PM
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Re: Page playoff.

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
The point I was trying to make was that Page playoff system should not be used at all. There is no real advantage to finished gn first. A playoff lose still gives the 1/2 loser a second chance. Again, I ask your readers to name another sport that uses the bush league system


What happens when there are two first place teams, like what happens in Manitoba?

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02-10-16 02:45PM
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Page playoff

2 points. If the players like it so much then why does the world curling tour (player run) not use it? Second point. No other major sport allows a team who has lost a playoff match, be it a single game or series to determine the match winner, a second chance.

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02-10-16 03:18PM
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I I think it is very fair, if only for the reason that we all know how often the difference between first and second might be one half shot or last rock advantage in the last end.

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02-10-16 03:20PM
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Re: Page playoff

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
2 points. If the players like it so much then why does the world curling tour (player run) not use it? Second point. No other major sport allows a team who has lost a playoff match, be it a single game or series to determine the match winner, a second chance.


Most Grand Slam events have eight or six teams make the playoffs so page is unworkable in that format.

Pretty sure they changed to Page to get the extra game in for broadcasting and ticket revenue. While that works at the Scotties or Brier I don't see that as an incentive lower down the food chain such as Provincials.

Cricket in India is huge and they changed to the Page System to get the extra game in for exactly that reason...$$$$$

Softball also uses it and did actually use it in the Olympics (until Softball was dropped out in 2012.)

I personally like the Page System, gives us one more "good" game to watch but each to his own. I think the ladder system they use in bowling is dumb but I'm sure bowlers love it for some reason.

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02-10-16 04:26PM
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Re: Re: Page playoff.

quote:
Originally posted by Gerry


What happens when there are two first place teams, like what happens in Manitoba?



If the field is divided into two pools and they play round-robins in the pools, as in the Manitoba Scotties, or the Sask Scotties, then the Page System is appropriate. After all, this is what it was designed for.

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02-10-16 04:43PM
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Maybe I do not understand things properly, but it continues to amaze me that we get all this backlash, year after year, regarding the page system, but we never hear a peep about the Grand Slam events.

A 5-0 team in the GS and a 3-2 team are on even ground in the playoffs, one loss and you are out, Is that fair.

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02-10-16 05:30PM
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Page playoffs

It's playoffs. All bets are off. It is what makes playoffs exciting. And by the way, there is nothing preventing the Scotties, or the Brier from having more teams make playoffs. The 1/2 game may feature good teams, but deep down they must know that if they lose, they are still ok. Don't get me started about the Bronze medal game!

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02-10-16 05:37PM
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Re: Page playoff

quote:
Originally posted by Frozencanuck
World curling tour uses a single knockout playoff, as does Olympic curling, as does CFL, NFL, NHL, NBA, MLB, NBA, FIFA.........
Different sports use different systems as appropriate. As a soccer fan pretty well all the major league championships are decided by round robin alone...no playoffs at all. The european champions league is a small round robin followed by home and away contests with a straight Knockout final. The biggest of all,, the world cup, is round robin until the final 16 when it becomes straight knockout. Same sport..different circumstances. There is no reason all curling events have to use the same system. I prefer the page because of the second chance given to the one and two teams but there is a certain excitement level to the knockout format.

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02-10-16 07:08PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
we all know how often the difference between first and second might be one half shot or last rock advantage in the last end.


But it is also quite common for the difference between first and second to be quite significant.

It is getting more and more common to see one team finishing well clear of the field, and sometimes, as in the most recent Ontario Scotties, there's a three-way tie for second, far behind the leaders.

When this happens, one of the tied teams goes to the 1-2 game, where they can lose and still reach the semi-final.

But the other two tied teams go to the 3-4 game, where they need to win to make the semi-final.

As pointed out previously by UnattachedFC, this gives one of the tied teams more than twice as much chance of winning the event than the other two combined.

And that makes no sense.

I agree the Page System is better than (1 vs 4) and (2 vs 3), because I think it's a very good thing to have a playoff structure that rewards excellence in the round-robin.

And this is why I would like to see a Modified Page System, where:

If there's a tie for first place in the round-robin, there's a 1-2 game. The winner goes to the final and the loser goes to the semi-final. Otherwise the round-robin winner goes directly to the final.

If there's a tie for second place, there's a 2-3 game. The winner goes to the semi-final, and the loser goes to the 3-4 game. Otherwise the second place team goes directly to the semifinal.

The 3-4 game always happens, whether there's a tie for third place or not. The winner goes to the semifinal and the loser is out.

As with any round-robin, tie-breakers may be required in addition to the scheduled games.

~~~

But I don't expect this Modified Page System to be adopted, anywhere, ever ... if only because it makes so much sense.

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02-10-16 07:20PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Netz
Maybe I do not understand things properly, but it continues to amaze me that we get all this backlash, year after year, regarding the page system, but we never hear a peep about the Grand Slam events.


This shows you how much people care about the GS events.

And it's not very amazing to me. After all, GS events don't determine who plays in the Brier or the Hearts or at the Worlds.

A 5-0 team in the GS and a 3-2 team are on even ground in the playoffs, one loss and you are out, Is that fair.

Yes. It is fair in the sense that this is the system. Everybody knows the rules in advance. All playoff systems are equally fair in this sense.

But the more important question, to me anyway, is whether or not the event is designed to select the strongest team.

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02-10-16 07:41PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Your modified page makes sense but likely will never be adopted.
I think the present page playoff system weeds out the pretenders. As an old retired rock chucker I watch a lot of tv curling events.My biggest fear with ANY playoff is that a 4th place team gets hot at the right moment and ends up representing our country at the worlds while a couple of better teams end up watching on tv like me .hehe......I think the recent Ontario Tankard is an example as to how the page works......Glen undefeated in RR ..seeded no 1 for his RR efforts....loses 1/2 game but comes back thru semis and the final because his team was the best team in that event. The cream usually rises to the top.



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02-10-16 08:38PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
fwiw my suggestion would be a modified page.

If the #1 team flies thru the event unbeaten then they earn a direct bye into the final.

If nobody flies thru unbeaten the Page runs as it usually does.

One addition to the final I'd make though.

If the unbeaten team loses the final to a team with more than 1 loss then they get the benefit of a second game challenge.

Basically the page system in reverse!



I agree, but even if the unbeaten team loses to a team with one loss, they should have to be beaten twice.

The best draw for a provincial is the non-modified triple. It is a perfect draw and the most fair.

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02-10-16 08:48PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
The best draw for a provincial is the non-modified triple. It is a perfect draw and the most fair.


Bingo!

If it takes three games to get eliminated, nobody can ever complain that a strong team got ambushed by a weak one.

And no late games are meaningless, and no tie-breakers are ever required!

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