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06-27-16 07:15PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by Grat
The "cash strapped" curlers who were using directional sweeping were buying new pads more frequently with the old fabrics once they realized fresh pads worked better. This should help take the financial advantages out of the equation.


This post makes zero sense.

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06-27-16 07:27PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
I agree they stuck their head in the sand when it came to technique and rules governing it, and snowplowing or dumping is very subjective. The rules governing the head material only apply to elite level events and to tell you the truth, if my club decided to try and implement the WCF rules for club play they would probably be told to cram it. Unless the club was willing to provide replacement heads for the players no club will take the chance of alienating valued members over something so stupid.


I agree but I ask the WCF and CCA to clearly define 'elite level events'.

For example, as we are now going to give 2 brier (national championship event) spots to CTRS teams does that mean EVERY CTRS spiel is now an elite level event and therefore subject to these new rules? Because it should since CTRS points and teams now advance to a national championship.

What about zone and provincial events? And are we encompassing ALL national championships? Jrs? Adult? Senior's, mixed?

How stupid would it be to allow Cashspiels on the CTRS to set their own equipment and sweeping rules?

And has anyone noticed that there is no mention whatsoever of hair brushes in this release? Where is the data to prove that a tool, used without problems for over 50 years, is a problem?

Having different sets of rules governing equipment makes no sense. Unless you stand to profit from it. Which, more and more, is beginning to look like the case here.

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06-27-16 09:28PM
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The way i think this should go is all events that are giving CTRS points should be up holding these new rules on broom heads.
The one day meat spiel lets get our drunk on events, have at it. lets see if you can "carve". use whatever you want.
I coach a competitive jr womans team, and i don't think its a stretch to expect these kids to follow the rules at their events. Most if not all are trying to achieve becoming "elite" curlers, and with what I'm seeing at the national and junior tour levels these team can and will use carving to the best they can.
i think hair is out, don't think the WCF will go back on the current ban on hair as it stands.

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06-27-16 09:47PM
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I Don't Get It

For over a year now it's been proven via videos and even tv coverage of spiels that it's the sweeping technique that is causing the over and under curl, as seen by the hair brooms as well. How is forcing the curlers to use the WCT officially approved fabric without acknowledging the snowplowing corner sweeping affect make sense? This sounds likes thousands and thousands of dollars of "testing" wasted. If all manufacturers have to use the same fabric, why bother having competition? Let the WCT make their own brooms? This whole thing smells of behind the scenes back room BS.

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06-27-16 10:26PM
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Grat
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


This post makes zero sense.



Just trying to figure out your claim that this change is going to limit competition based on finances. With the current fabrics the teams who can buy new pads more frequently are at an advantage because fresh pads have a greater affect steering a rock, and that effect exists to some extent even without cornering or snowplowing. If the new fabric limits the directional effect there's less need to replace pads or covers every game and it becomes less expensive to compete.

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06-28-16 02:30AM
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peteski
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quote:
Originally posted by biterbar
So it looks like they are declaring open season on the 4 old guys curling in the Wednesday night open league and the local bonspiels? There are plenty of local teams that have sweepers who had the directional sweeping method down and the sweeping ability to move stones around last spring. They will now be allowed to continue missing the broom and moving the stone where they want while four old guys just have to be more accurate to beat them?

I don't think they give credit to the sweeping ability of a lot of players who may have never played the elite level. And how about all of those curlers who were at that level in juniors and play downs who are now only curling in the local events? Leaving the fabric open to anyone will have a negative affect at the club level.

Make it the same for all.



This is not the WCF's jurisdiction. They don't make rules for club curlers, they make rules for WCF events. Presumably, Curling Canada and the WCT will have the same basic standards, but that is up to them. After that, it will be up to individual clubs, leagues and bonspiels to determine which rules they deem necessary. The WCF would have no say in what they do, so they can hardly be blamed for that.

However, if they were able to enact rules for all levels of play, people would complain that they are making people buy new brooms, as we have already seen in this thread. If they say casual curlers can use whatever they want, then it is open season on old guys. How can they win?

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06-28-16 04:01AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan
Read the WCF release and all I can say is what a complete and utter whitewash.

They acknowledge the impact of technique but refuse to do anything about it. Instead, we force cash strapped but talented athletes to purchase what I guarantee will be very expensive heads. Can't help but wonder if there is a possibility of a class action lawsuit here. Another attempt to decimate the numbers of competitive curlers not by talent, but by pocketbook.

But I give notice to any team we face next year. I will, personally, plow, corner and dump old school style and I urge every team out there to do the same.



Ok, so all last year you (rightly) say that they have to do the testing. So, they do the testing and find that, "regardless of the technique, even with sweeping at 90 degrees, certain brushes had the ability to manipulate the stone in ways that ran counter to the views expressed in the Survey, including slowing it down". This proves that, in fact, the fabric is the issue and not the techniques. However, you choose to ignore this finding. This tells me you had decided what the problem was, and no testing results are going to tell you different. If you ask for testing, but ignore the results of those tests, you're not interested in solving the problem, just complaining about it.

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06-28-16 04:05AM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamcan


Having different sets of rules governing equipment makes no sense. Unless you stand to profit from it. Which, more and more, is beginning to look like the case here.



So, who exactly stands to profit here?

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06-28-16 08:23AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski


Ok, so all last year you (rightly) say that they have to do the testing. So, they do the testing and find that, "regardless of the technique, even with sweeping at 90 degrees, certain brushes had the ability to manipulate the stone in ways that ran counter to the views expressed in the Survey, including slowing it down". This proves that, in fact, the fabric is the issue and not the techniques. However, you choose to ignore this finding. This tells me you had decided what the problem was, and no testing results are going to tell you different. If you ask for testing, but ignore the results of those tests, you're not interested in solving the problem, just complaining about it.



Wrong. I ignore nothing. I have always stated that this is a combination issue: technology and technique. Here we have a clearly written statement from the WCF agreeing that the data shows this yet their solution is singular and targets only the technology.

They also refuse to release the data collected by the NRC so we can make our own decisions.

As for your second reply to my post about profits, read the press release from Balance Plus. They remark how they hope to keep prices down but they haven't been told what the WCF 'licencing fees' will be.

That's a profit move. Nothing more, nothing less.

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06-28-16 05:15PM
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Balance plus also said in their release they will be marketing the "blackhead" brush head which was incredibly abrasive. What possible purpose does that serve?

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06-28-16 05:15PM
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I highly disagree that there is any profit motive for anyone involved in this. The WCF is spending a lot of money on all of this testing. Approved equipment requires some sort of approval process - which costs money. The WCF needs to at least recoup some of these expenses.

For the manufacturers their costs per pad shouldn't change much. So I'd expect at most a slight increase in cost. At $30 a pad though the cost adds up pretty quick. Especially if these new pads don't last very long.

The biggest potential problem I see is a lack of supply. What happens if you're at an event that requires WCF approved pads and you have no way of getting any?

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06-29-16 11:50AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13
Balance plus also said in their release they will be marketing the "blackhead" brush head which was incredibly abrasive. What possible purpose does that serve?


Serves to have BP sell more heads while continuing the disaster of directional sweeping at the club level.

The CCA, USCA and all other organizations better get their own statements banning directional fabrics before club level leagues and bonspiels continue this fiasco.

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06-29-16 05:32PM
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**************************************************
*Most brush heads were disqualified because they had too much impact on curl and/or could reduce stone speed and distance travelled. EQualizer heads did what they were designed to do and met the requirements listed in the WCF survey results. However, the Elite athletes at the Sweeping Summit want future events to be won by better throwers with sweepers having less impact on the distance a stone travels. Similar to a baseball pitcher needing to be a better pitcher if the strike zone was made smaller.

BalancePlus heads that meet the WCF competition spec will be known as eLite. They will be available soon; in our original oval shape as well as for LiteSpeed. The equipment rules for recreational curling have not changed. It has always been BalancePlus’ view that curling should be easier for people to play. We have been designing, testing, manufacturing and distributing products that make the sport more enjoyable for people since 1995. It is uncertain at this time what equipment rules will be adopted by clubs and leagues. However, we will continue to offer EQ. EQ and EQ+ will be available for LiteSpeed. We have the abrasive fabric that teams used at Women’s and Men’s Worlds as well as our Black Magic fabric if anyone has a need for those products.-BP Press Release 6/27/16
**********************************************

"However, the Elite athletes at the Sweeping Summit want future events to be won by better throwers with sweepers having less impact on the distance a stone travels. Similar to a baseball pitcher needing to be a better pitcher if the strike zone was made smaller."

"It is uncertain at this time what equipment rules will be adopted by clubs and leagues. However, we will continue to offer EQ. EQ and EQ+ will be available for LiteSpeed. We have the abrasive fabric that teams used at Women’s and Men’s Worlds as well as our Black Magic fabric if anyone has a need for those products."

Hey, Balance Plus, ""non-Elite" players want future events won by better throwers as well. If it is uncertain what rules will be adopted why are you selling "abrasive fabrics" and as for the Black Magic what would ANYONE have "a need for those products"?

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06-30-16 12:44PM
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Hey, Balance Plus, ""non-Elite" players want future events won by better throwers as well. If it is uncertain what rules will be adopted why are you selling "abrasive fabrics" and as for the Black Magic what would ANYONE have "a need for those products"?

Considering it was their players that were whining and they brought out the "Blackhead"to make a point about "too abrasive". what a joke.I'm hoping icemakers will tell their clubs to not carry this head from Balance Plus.

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07-01-16 01:52PM
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You missed the point. The only reason anyone will need those fabrics is if they are required to compete with other curlers that continue to use directional fabrics. Anyone wishing to purchase them will need to explain why they are required.
Our opinion about directional sweeping and directional equipment has not changed. Directional sweeping can be significantly reduced by using specific equipment and fabrics as shown many times and confirmed at the Sweeping Summit.
Scott Taylor

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07-01-16 08:55PM
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jamcan
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quote:
Originally posted by BalancePlus
You missed the point. The only reason anyone will need those fabrics is if they are required to compete with other curlers that continue to use directional fabrics. Anyone wishing to purchase them will need to explain why they are required.
Our opinion about directional sweeping and directional equipment has not changed. Directional sweeping can be significantly reduced by using specific equipment and fabrics as shown many times and confirmed at the Sweeping Summit.
Scott Taylor



Directional fabrics? LMFAO. There is no such thing-unless it's a term coined by an equipment manufacturer who stands to profit from the WCF allowing multiple fabrics to be sold.

Mr. Taylor, you are-I understand- a certified coach. If so then you are well aware that directional fabric does not exist and directional sweeping is a technique, not a technology. You are also likely well aware that changing the technique rule has a HUGE impact on the effects on the running stone.

But then, all us old farts who used to snowplow already know this.

But, hey, thanks for a post where you justify selling overly abrasive materials to club curlers because you imply a whole bunch of curlers are cheating. Kind of reminds me of your Blackhead stunt last year when you were losing market share to Hardline.

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Last edited by jamcan on 07-01-16 at 09:44PM

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07-02-16 10:24AM
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I have to agree with Jamcan, directional fabric is obviously a misnomer. To call it directional implies that there is a right direction and a wrong direction for the fabric to work, that if the fabric is not installed on the broom with the head facing the proper direction then it will not work correctly. Also, to say that you are selling the "black magic" head ( which I assume is the blackhead that was used in the tour event last season ) to combat other manufacturers ( see Hardline) directional fabric heads is like comparing apples to oranges. In a podcast that was available on this very site, Glenn Howard stated that Balance Plus looked for a material similar to the waterproof material that Hardline was using and ended up with a fabric that was between six and ten times more abrasive than the competitors fabric. To have representatives of your company openly complain about a competitors product damaging the ice and then plan to release a product that will be even more abrasive with an even higher probability to damage the curling surface seems hypocritical. Hopefully ( if the "black magic"head is the repackaged blackhead ") clubs will ban such a head from league play, or icemakers will demand that it not be allowed on their ice.

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07-03-16 01:23AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BalancePlus
You missed the point. The only reason anyone will need those fabrics is if they are required to compete with other curlers that continue to use directional fabrics. Anyone wishing to purchase them will need to explain why they are required.
Our opinion about directional sweeping and directional equipment has not changed. Directional sweeping can be significantly reduced by using specific equipment and fabrics as shown many times and confirmed at the Sweeping Summit.
Scott Taylor


So you've decided to take the low road rather than the high road.
Very nice.
Rather than discourage the use of fabrics which you admit help the rocks to do extreme things and damage the ice, you encourage it by offering said fabrics for sale yourselves - thus adopting the flawed philosophy of two wrongs making a right.

No doubt the factor which had B.P. decide to put this product on the market is the potential financial profit it will bring. Nothing to do with the 'integrity of the game', which we've heard so much of (and so hypocritically) all through this brush head nonsense, from various sources - but simply because someone within the company calculated that they can make more money by marketing this product than by not.

I've been saying since the beginnings of this brush head situation that, despite the lofty ethical claims by those involved (players, brush head companies, governing bodies, etc.), there is far more hypocrisy and selfishness involved here than there is integrity - and that the main consideration - by far, and from all parties - is financial gain.
It's good to see that others are now realizing this.

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07-03-16 10:37AM
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Couple of thoughts after reading other comments.

1. It's odd that "summit" felt that for some reason only "elite" curlers can have a detrimental effect on the game.

2. If curling is analogous to golf, the use of "directional" fabrics will quickly be shunned by other curlers. Nobody uses an illegal golf ball or illegal golf club. They would be chastised by their competition immediately after their drive travels 10 yards farther.

I find it hard to believe that manufacturers don't realize this. Is it possible they are trying to sell product all ready manufactured?

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07-03-16 11:15PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Curlrock
Couple of thoughts after reading other comments.

2. If curling is analogous to golf, the use of "directional" fabrics will quickly be shunned by other curlers. Nobody uses an illegal golf ball or illegal golf club. They would be chastised by their competition immediately after their drive travels 10 yards farther.

I find it hard to believe that manufacturers don't realize this. Is it possible they are trying to sell product all ready manufactured?


But then, in baseball, many people choose to use aluminium bats when given the option of wood or aluminium.
In hockey, there are surely goalies at various levels who use equipment which is not legal at the NHL level...

Tennis is like golf, in that non-pros use racquets which are legal at the pro level.

In baseball and hockey, there are essentially two levels - professional, and organized competition. At any level lower than an organized competition level, it's basically 'beer leagues', where no-one cares what equipment anyone uses.

Golf and tennis are a little different - there are 3 levels - professional, organized competition, and purely recreational (playing with friends, etc.) In these two sports, even at the purely recreational level where there is no organized competition, people don't use equipment which is not legal at the pro level. There is not much equipment available that is not legal at the pro level - but if there was, I doubt that people at the lowest level (where anything is permitted) would use it.

In curling, there are 3 levels, as well - professional (Elite), and two levels of organized competition (bonspiel level and club level). Each of these levels has their own separate set of rules. Unless you're renting sheets to play with your friends - outside of any organized competition -, you are bound by equipment rules.
Time will tell how the levels under the Elite level will set their rules for brush heads - whether they will go the golf/tennis route, or the baseball/hockey route.

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07-05-16 10:06AM
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Good analysis by Nolan Thiessen:

http://nolanthiessen.blogspot.ca/20...s.html?spref=tw

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07-05-16 03:32PM
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Nolan provides 3 videos from the past, and then states that "Nobody was complaining about rocks falling back or darting sideways back then, so to me it seemed to be that fabric and construction was a driving factor in this issue."

In all 3 videos the players were using hair brooms. But I thought hair brooms were banned because they were too effective using proper technique? Don't the videos just prove that we didn't know how to use technique effectively back then? If not, why are hair brooms banned?

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07-05-16 10:53PM
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dugless_zone 13
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: the Banana Belt
Posts: 990

"Nobody was complaining about rocks falling back or darting sideways back then, so to me it seemed to be that fabric and construction was a driving factor in this issue."

Actually, I'm glad Nolan posted these videos since they prove the exact opposite of his statement that it is fabric and construction. When watching the videos where Nolan says there are no darting or falling rocks one thing is glaringly absent, the single north-south corner sweeping player. This shows beyond a reasonable doubt that it is primarily technique that is responsible.

you think he would have thought things through better .

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07-06-16 03:28AM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

 

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2340

quote:
Originally posted by ott-am
Good analysis by Nolan Thiessen:

http://nolanthiessen.blogspot.ca/20...s.html?spref=tw



Good analysis? Of what?

Thiessen has actually posted videos that are 100% contrary to his claims. There is no snowplowing in any of the 3 videos and certainly no team using the one sweeper technique.

If Thiessen thought these videos supported his stance that it's technology not technique he should've chosen better videos. All these do is completely support the technique side of things.

It's also fascinating that the hair brushes in all 3 videos are pretty much the same material over the years and we see none of the manipulation because they're used properly.

However, I suggest that since he now works for the CCA, any blog written by him should be viewed as biased.

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07-06-16 03:42AM
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On The Nose
Drawmaster

 

Registered: Apr 2014
Location: In the House
Posts: 608

quote:
Originally posted by dugless_zone 13

you think he would have thought things through better .


Not really, as he was one of the more vocal players claiming that they cared so much about "the integrity of the game", while at the same time using every means possible to steer rocks left, right, forward and backward to extreme degrees.

People should be judged by their actions, and not by their mere words.
I still find it the height of hypocrisy that the elite players were complaining so much about what the new brush heads could do, and all the while, they were using the same brush heads they were complaining about to perform sweeping manoeuvres which were more and more radical throughout the season.
In the absence of rules, it was the players - and only the players - who could have stopped this brush head fiasco. They made what amounted to little more than a public relations move early in the season (led by Thiessen) with the 'agreement' to not use certain brush heads (basically, the original Hardline IcePad and Balance Plus's 'Blackhead'). But this proved to be nothing but a mirage, as basically every team used the most effective brush head legally available to them for the rest of the season, steering rocks in every possible direction, and doing all the things that they claimed to hate and to be bad for the integrity of the game.

It was absolutely ridiculous - the players were basically calling upon the governing bodies to save them - and to save curling - from them - from the players themselves, who were the only ones responsible for the fiasco, as they were the ones who were doing the radical and extreme things to the trajectory of the rocks. They were complaining about something which they themselves were solely responsible for doing! They never made any attempt to stop doing it - they just continued to complain... and continued to do exactly what they were complaining about.
Many of them even went so far as to use broom heads from companies which were directly competing with the broom company which was sponsoring their team - just to get that extra radical edge in sweeping - and so we saw teams sponsored by Balance Plus using Hardline IcePads. That's a rather extreme action - and it was all done because they wanted their sweeping to have as much effect on the rocks as was possible. And out of the other side of their mouths, they were complaining that this radical sweeping is ruining the game! It was completely crazy.
These are obviously not the actions of people who truly care about the integrity of the game - the only thing they care about is winning, and, despite their lofty ethical claims, they proved that they were willing to take extreme measures to win - the integrity of the game be damned.

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Last edited by On The Nose on 07-06-16 at 03:50AM

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