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M: NWTCA Curling Club Championships
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Lockhart (EE)
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03-17-15 03:02AM
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Stoner
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
Remember, Sormunen was tied at the top of the round robin standings at Nationals. Erika Brown may indeed have a better team, but it's not that much better. How much better do people think she would do? My guess is midpack at best. This is why the HPP makes sense to me.

I agree with most people that sending the winner of Nationals is better, but the most likely way to get teams up to the level at the top at worlds is to develop semi-professional teams. If you're program is doing it's job, these teams should eventually be able to win Nationals on their own merit.



I pretty much agree with this, I think the best pro circuit team should go, but teams like Brown can't really play the tour, if they were funded the same way they probably would get and be better. Having said that, does this method actually work, I mean Russia and China have been doing it this way, hand picking their curlers to try and make an ultimate team, China has 1 gold, 1 silver and 2 bronzes, Russia have 1 bronze, so it may or may not be a better way to go, only time will tell.

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03-17-15 07:51AM
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I woke up in a good mood this morning. I checked my curling scores and saw the girls beat Japan. Then I was in a very good mood. But, NO, I just had to check the threads. Bad mood.

Ice: Good ice, bad ice, straight ice, swingy ice...the advantage goes to those who have played it before. (I was never a great curler, but I was once a great bad ice curler) Our girls, obviously, have limited experience with bad ice.

dbsdbs: Requiring teams to have Points in order to make it to Nationals will have unintended consequences. It will have our teams playing too much in the USA where Points are easier to accumulate. Brady Clark, for instance, always plays a tough schedule. Your proposal would have him playing more in Minnesota and that's not good. Also, such a system might simply become a path that just rewards the richest, as those that can afford to travel rise to the top every year. A compromise might be to require playdown teams to shoot a certain number of tour events. Perhaps a total of 5 with at least 2 being in Canada.

Stoner: Of course China and Russia have their semi-pros. They have very little choice. They have practically no curling clubs and practically no curlers. They are "curling nations" only in the broadest definition of the term. They will do well as long as tours and Canada allow them to do well.

I'd enjoy a conversation about "Would Erika's team have done better?", but after Worlds is over. Until then, I can brighten my mood by seeing a USA victory.

Ben Tucker

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03-17-15 10:58AM
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Gerry
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
dbsdbs: Requiring teams to have Points in order to make it to Nationals will have unintended consequences. It will have our teams playing too much in the USA where Points are easier to accumulate. Brady Clark, for instance, always plays a tough schedule. Your proposal would have him playing more in Minnesota and that's not good. Also, such a system might simply become a path that just rewards the richest, as those that can afford to travel rise to the top every year. A compromise might be to require playdown teams to shoot a certain number of tour events. Perhaps a total of 5 with at least 2 being in Canada.


Under the current system, teams can only count 4 USA events towards their 6 events points totals. It's also in their best interest to play in Canada already as the points available in the USA (while growing) aren't worth enough to give teams a realistic chance of being the World team without playing International events.

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03-17-15 12:38PM
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I believe I read that Aileen was benched for the Canada game, and Monica got moved into skipping? Did she skip the team at any point during the season?

If not, talk about getting thrown to the wolves. And Sweden is next. Whew.

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03-17-15 01:11PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tuck
I woke up in a good mood this morning. I checked my curling scores and saw the girls beat Japan. Then I was in a very good mood. But, NO, I just had to check the threads. Bad mood.

Ice: Good ice, bad ice, straight ice, swingy ice...the advantage goes to those who have played it before. (I was never a great curler, but I was once a great bad ice curler) Our girls, obviously, have limited experience with bad ice.

Ben Tucker



It's not bad ice. It's the kind of ice many club curlers in Canada play a lot, and if you read it well it favours you. Sweepers of course have to be mindful of any patchiness in certain spots. The woman from US probably lack enough breadth of experience period on all sorts of ice conditions.

"Elite curlers" might be spoiled somewhat on "normal" arena ice when the curl is there on draws BUT the hits can be thrown super straight with minimal risk. A curler like J. Jones may not adjust immediately to the challenge on this arena ice, but they will adjust.

Any claims that Brown would have done better are pretty shallow, my take on things is the US simply has no elite woman's teams at the moment and at least a few younger players are getting experience. However, this whole idea of grabbing players from all over the country for an "all star" team seems destined to failure, unless the majority are planning on settling in one spot and playing/practicing all winter together, as most top Canadian teams do unless they are highly experienced veterans.

Last edited by Nine Ender on 03-17-15 at 01:35PM

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03-17-15 01:35PM
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quote:
Originally posted by SPMFromPCC
I believe I read that Aileen was benched for the Canada game, and Monica got moved into skipping? Did she skip the team at any point during the season?

If not, talk about getting thrown to the wolves. And Sweden is next. Whew.



Yes, Monica skipped during the USA v CAN game. They've also jiggered the throwing order for the two games before that, with Monica throwing 4th and Aileen skipping from the 3rd spot. I don't know if Monica has previously skipped this team in an event.

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03-17-15 02:25PM
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Monica didn't look all that comfortable skipping to me. No doubt Aileen was struggling, but I think the team is better off with her calling the game at least.

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03-17-15 02:30PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Nine Ender


It's not bad ice. It's the kind of ice many club curlers in Canada play a lot, and if you read it well it favours you. Sweepers of course have to be mindful of any patchiness in certain spots. The woman from US probably lack enough breadth of experience period on all sorts of ice conditions.

"Elite curlers" might be spoiled somewhat on "normal" arena ice when the curl is there on draws BUT the hits can be thrown super straight with minimal risk. A curler like J. Jones may not adjust immediately to the challenge on this arena ice, but they will adjust.

Any claims that Brown would have done better are pretty shallow, my take on things is the US simply has no elite woman's teams at the moment and at least a few younger players are getting experience. However, this whole idea of grabbing players from all over the country for an "all star" team seems destined to failure, unless the majority are planning on settling in one spot and playing/practicing all winter together, as most top Canadian teams do unless they are highly experienced veterans.



Agree 100%. You can't blame the ice for U.S. underperformance. The top teams, and even some of the so-so teams, are managing the ice conditions just fine. How has our coaching staff been assisting our team adapt to the ice and learn the WCF rocks? At this level, the game is more mental than it is physical--that is, the players pretty much all have the requisite physical skills, and the most performance gain is likely to come from improving the mental aspects of the game--and both team dynamics and experience are extremely valuable here.

I understand that Aileen has been struggling, and perhaps the coaching staff wants to get the alternate some in-game experience, but the constant tinkering with the lineup cannot be a routine strategy for increasing team performance. If the U.S. wants to prepare competitive teams, it needs to let players settle into roles they accept and relish, and have them practice and play a lot in those roles to develop the team dynamics and trust that is so essential for success. (Shoot, this even works at the club and bonspiel level.) And work a lot on the mental aspect of the game. That's a role for the coaching staff.

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03-17-15 03:42PM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski
Monica didn't look all that comfortable skipping to me. No doubt Aileen was struggling, but I think the team is better off with her calling the game at least.


Just watched the beginning of this game. Aileen is sick so they sat her for this game. Even Vic Rauter got benched this morning with sickness, they brought in Al Cameron from the bench.

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03-17-15 03:47PM
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Yeah, even I won't hang this lineup change on the HPP staff completely...the broadcast says there is a bug going around, and Aileen is ill...

given that and the fact there's no reason to gutcheck out these remaining games to fight for anything, makes just as much sense to let Aileen be ill and let the other 4 get some games in.

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03-17-15 04:20PM
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I do not mean that points should be required to get to Nationals -- obviously that cannot work. What I meant was that points could be used as ONE WAY to qualify for Nationals. However, I still think the Nationals winner should go to Worlds. It just makes no sense to have a team getting to Nationals knowing that a 2nd or 3rd or even 4th place finish is all they need to go to Worlds. Anointing a world rep and then tinkering with the line-up at Worlds is not the answer.

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03-17-15 04:33PM
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Mood is darkening. Nine Ender ain't helpin'. I wanted to hold off on the "would Erika have done better" discussion until after Worlds. Especially now because our remaining schedule is against the bottom half of the standings. The girls can finish strong like the Junior Boys and the WUGs boys. I'm still cheering.

However:

We don't have any contending teams? We have 3 Women's teams in the WCT Top 35 and 6 in the Top 60. We have contending teams.

Erika would have done better. You say that league curlers in Canada see this all the time. Guess what: Erika curls league in Toronto.

Erika's vast experience would have her far better suited for the field of play we are seeing at Worlds. No doubt.

Erika's team also would have entered Worlds with the confidence that comes with winning the gold medal at Nationals.

Sum it up and I firmly believe that Erika and her team would have done better in the early going. That being said, I'm still cheering. USA USA USA

Ben Tucker
Why does my mood still depend on curling scores? This is ridiculous. I need to read a book or start yoga or something

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03-17-15 04:46PM
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So there seems to be some agreement that USA would have been better off at Worlds had they sent the event champion. Maybe -- we will never know. What we have now is 4 different lineups in 7 games. That is some kind of coaching -- should really build confidence in the curlers when each shot they try may be a factor in whether they get to play in the next game.

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03-17-15 05:16PM
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Four different lineups in seven games is really silly IMO. Speaks to desperation. Hardly promotes a "team" feel.

In all this discussion about the advantages of a hand-picked team, focusing your efforts on a few talented and dedicated curlers and how other countries have had success with that, let's not lose sight of this ...

One of the biggest advantages the US has is the population. Working almost exclusively within this HP formula pretty much ignores the opportunity to fill the big end of the funnel with quality athletes. Sure, one could say the two are not mutually exclusive, but in practice they appear to be (especially given the reality of limited funds).

Who really thinks this current plan is on target?

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03-17-15 10:59PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shotrock1
Four different lineups in seven games is really silly IMO. Speaks to desperation. Hardly promotes a "team" feel.

In all this discussion about the advantages of a hand-picked team, focusing your efforts on a few talented and dedicated curlers and how other countries have had success with that, let's not lose sight of this ...

One of the biggest advantages the US has is the population. Working almost exclusively within this HP formula pretty much ignores the opportunity to fill the big end of the funnel with quality athletes. Sure, one could say the two are not mutually exclusive, but in practice they appear to be (especially given the reality of limited funds).

Who really thinks this current plan is on target?



But, with the limited funds, how can you really take advantage of that opportunity?

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03-18-15 12:21AM
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quote:
Originally posted by peteski


But, with the limited funds, how can you really take advantage of that opportunity?



... by recognizing that improvement does not come overnight -- in spite of what USOC wants -- and by spending that money at the other end of the funnel. Instead of focusing dollars on a very few rinks for worlds, spend that money on junior development where growth and improvement can happen faster.

Last edited by dbsdbs on 03-18-15 at 12:53AM

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03-18-15 08:29AM
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Well. They picked up a win over Sweden (the rest of the world can thank the US for that). Looks like what should be a win over Finland (7-4 in the 9th with hammer as I type this). At least that's a morale booster. A bit too late to do anything except play spoiler. And this doesn't change my opinion at all in terms of HPP or if that team should have gone. But at least there is some good news.

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03-18-15 08:37AM
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dbsdbs - My thoughts exactly. For a sport that does this extremely well, look to USA Swimming. My son is a skilled swimmer (13 years old, and is in the pool about 14 hours a week.) He's not an uber-elite swimmer, but skilled enough (like many others) that he could certainly "break out". USA Swimming could spend more money, time and effort only on the top .25%, but they do an excellent job (through Junior Olympics, Zones and Districts) of keeping thousands of swimmers in events by keeping the "entry" times high enough to assure a critical mass of swimmers. What has this produced? Lots of kids that believe they can get to Olympic Trials. And lots were not in the top .25% at age 13.

If USA curling thinks they are fostering an inclusive atmosphere with this HPP invitation process and where even the winners of our national championships don't go to represent the USA at worlds, they are kidding themselves.

The goal of a well-run business is long-term profitability. You may have to take short term hits to achieve this, but again if you have a country with a population size of the USA and you aren't leveraging that you're making a mistake. All, IMO, of course!

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03-18-15 12:13PM
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quote:
Originally posted by IMWright
Well. They picked up a win over Sweden (the rest of the world can thank the US for that). Looks like what should be a win over Finland (7-4 in the 9th with hammer as I type this). At least that's a morale booster. A bit too late to do anything except play spoiler. And this doesn't change my opinion at all in terms of HPP or if that team should have gone. But at least there is some good news.


We have good athletes. We are just not quite there in terms of consistency/decision making/teamwork compared to the top teams. We showed well against the weaker teams, but those teams made a lot of mistakes. We can't get over the hump against the top teams, who don't give you that many openings.

The ice has been somewhat challenging for everyone, but the top teams are adjusting and communicating, and making a higher percentage of their shots. That's experience and/or good coaching coming through.

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03-18-15 04:51PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs


... by recognizing that improvement does not come overnight -- in spite of what USOC wants -- and by spending that money at the other end of the funnel. Instead of focusing dollars on a very few rinks for worlds, spend that money on junior development where growth and improvement can happen faster.



But how much money does the other end of the funnel cost? My guess is significantly more to make any significant impact. And in a lot of ways, they're not trying to improve overnight. This explains why the majority of the players picked for the program are very young, and why they've focused their funds on a couple junior teams. I think it does have a decent chance of making a long term impact on the country's status in terms of medal contention.

I certainly agree that the way they're choosing the world reps is a mistake and would agree there are other issues with the program in terms of picking players, picking teams, etc. but I find it hard to believe there's a better way to make use of limited funds in order to achieve international success. I think the people who say you simply have to expand the pool of players are not dealing with the reality of the situation.

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03-18-15 08:46PM
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This thread started on how they the USA girls would do, so I see easily see 5-6 as they are leading DEN now, with NOR to follow. A good showing for an inexperienced team, and many promising signs. I predicted less.

Lots of vitriol on the HPP Thread, won't go there.

I'll only offer one thought, we have an OTC in Blaine, MN where curlers can play all year on great ice, so what is the harm if the HPP says, hey you want to be an Olympic curler, then we will fund you but you have to move to Minneapolis? I don't see that as a hardship for an athletic and attractive 23-24 year girl out of Juniors. Get some $$$ from HPP, get a job on the side, and curl, curl, curl, train, train, train because you love it.

A hard sell in the current USA job market if you love curling as a kid?

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03-18-15 09:18PM
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But what about the unattractive girls rtcurl? Can they also find success in Minneapolis? For every Mary Tyler Moore, there is the plain and drab Rhoda, who by gosh just might make it after all.

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03-19-15 09:00AM
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Thumbs up

That might be the best CZ post ever. ^^^^

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03-19-15 09:02AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rtcurl
This thread started on how they the USA girls would do, so I see easily see 5-6 as they are leading DEN now, with NOR to follow. A good showing for an inexperienced team, and many promising signs. I predicted less.

Lots of vitriol on the HPP Thread, won't go there.

I'll only offer one thought, we have an OTC in Blaine, MN where curlers can play all year on great ice, so what is the harm if the HPP says, hey you want to be an Olympic curler, then we will fund you but you have to move to Minneapolis? I don't see that as a hardship for an athletic and attractive 23-24 year girl out of Juniors. Get some $$$ from HPP, get a job on the side, and curl, curl, curl, train, train, train because you love it.

A hard sell in the current USA job market if you love curling as a kid?



you under estimated the danes and the will of a norwegian team who didnt want to go home winless

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03-19-15 09:38AM
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So....3-8....with an 0-5 against playoff caliber teams.

If anyone over at the HPP Directorate is marking this as anything other than a big red F in their gradebook, they're drunk or high, or maybe both.

The Curlers gave it their best, they represented the nation. They could, almost certainly, have been better prepared, but they aren't responsible for the program.

The PROGRAM is failing our athletes.

Change the PROGRAM.

Help the team's own coaches get better, don't force new coaches on them at the last minute before Worlds.

Help the team get better, don't force a new "World Class Skip" on their team as the 5th after Nationals.

Help USA Curling improve in the USA, don't spend 80% of the budget sending 2-3 teams willy nilly around the world (where "World" is defined as Canada...)...spend 80% of the budget making it easier for 20-30 US Teams to get exposed to high quality ice and competition in the USA.

And above all else, stop trying to game the team selection rules to make it more likely your pet teams will become Team USA...train your HPP athletes, help them compete, make them bigger, faster, stronger, smarter...and then subject them to the Crucible of actual National Championship Competition.

Yes, sometimes that Crucible will melt down a preferred team...guess what? If US Nationals can...Worlds definetely would have...we're better off knowing that early.

In short, the failure here is simple....a 3-8 record was preordained the moment we abandoned our National Champions and sent the B team on the strength of a pair of bonspiels in November.

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M: USA Curling Junior National Championships
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Draw: M6 -- Thu, Mar 28 -- 12:00pm CT
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Eau Claire, WI
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