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<smallfont><b><a href=CurlingZone > Chat Forums > General Curling Chat > Rock Talk > Is there a consensus best ever

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04-09-17 10:13AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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Is there a consensus best ever

It seems on the mens side everyone agreess Kevin Martin is the best ever, so I guess that is a consensus.

What about the womens though? There doesnt seem to be as strong a consensus. Stastically it should be Anette Norberg, but almmost equal number of people seem to still think it is Schmirler. Some also seem to pick Gustaffson or Vera Petzer, I think both get less picks than Norberg and Schmirler who clearly get the 2 most support, but still some. The very odd one even picks one of of the Jones (Colleen or Jennifer) which IMO is getting to the point of being a bit silly since neither Jones has any stat that is the best ever other than Colleens # of Scottie titles but she didnt even qualify for an Olympics, but I have still heard the occasional person say it is one of those. Some are now starting to say it is Homan, and if she actually adds significantly to her wins the next couple years to give her some statistical backing, the talk will increase.

So it seems amongst the mens there is a clear consensus best ever who pretty much everyone agrees with but not so much for the women.

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04-09-17 10:24AM
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The term best is very subjective. What criteria are you using?

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04-09-17 10:39AM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by decade
The term best is very subjective. What criteria are you using?


I guess everyone sets their own critiera. Dominance, consistency, longevity, standard of play (subjective), quality of competition (subjective). I strongly believe it should be predominantly based on achievements though. Of course even acheivements are subjective to a degree, for instance how many world titles is an Olympic Gold worth, can you be best ever without an Olympic Gold, how much of a world title is a Scotties or Brier title worth etc..

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04-09-17 01:52PM
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Team Homan is the best ever.

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04-09-17 02:30PM
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Can open, worms everywhere. I guess you are asking best single curler instead of best team ? Also, curling was only an official medal in the Olympics in 98 so you are short changing many greats who never had a chance to even play for one.

Is Martin the consensus best make ever? Not even sure about that. When you have a sport that runs through different eras it gets crazy hard to compare. The question becomes who dominated their contemporaries the most. Ernie Richardson won four world championships in five years....does he get consideration? Guessing not, since there is little video of him. 100 years from now Martin will be an afterthought.

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04-09-17 02:42PM
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As in with every sport there is never going to be consensus best ever. every one of the greats has their group of fans that will never concede to anyone else.possibly the most volatile discussion ever is williams v.s graf in tennis

in mens curling its widely agreed kevin martin but there are those that would argue for glenn howard or russ howard. i myself argue its russ howard

in the womens game there are the big 4 : norberg, gustafson, jones and schmirler and in time there will be homan and perhaps muirhead.

i myself am of the belief that schmirler on both a team perspective and individual perspective is the best ever and always will be. not only because of her accomplishments but because of the fact that when she got to the international level she won. 4 appearances representing canada and 4 golds. thats impressive. i cant help but think she'd have more if she hadnt been taken so soon

but ultimately its a debate that will never end.

Last edited by misty1 on 04-09-17 at 02:45PM

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04-09-17 03:38PM
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It seems to me that we should only use the term "best ever" after the teams in question have stopped playing together. Otherwise they are only "predictions."

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04-09-17 03:56PM
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Probably the 3rd or 4th time this has been a thread topic.

Truthfully there's no consensus and never can be unless the sport ceased to exist today. Even then you'd still have valid arguments for curlers from different eras.

For example, how would Kevin Martin have fared in the 1960s-70's? On poor arena ice with all corn brooms?. Or Ron Northcott on 26 second ice with good hook like today.

The best you'll ever do is a list of great teams (because there's always more than one) from each era/decade.

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04-09-17 11:16PM
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Harvey Hacksmasher

 

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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
As in with every sport there is never going to be consensus best ever. every one of the greats has their group of fans that will never concede to anyone else.possibly the most volatile discussion ever is williams v.s graf in tennis

in mens curling its widely agreed kevin martin but there are those that would argue for glenn howard or russ howard. i myself argue its russ howard

in the womens game there are the big 4 : norberg, gustafson, jones and schmirler and in time there will be homan and perhaps muirhead.

i myself am of the belief that schmirler on both a team perspective and individual perspective is the best ever and always will be. not only because of her accomplishments but because of the fact that when she got to the international level she won. 4 appearances representing canada and 4 golds. thats impressive. i cant help but think she'd have more if she hadnt been taken so soon

but ultimately its a debate that will never end.



I dont know which Jones team you are even referring to but I dont think either one belongs with the 3 you mentioned.

Jennifer- only 1 world title, and no record of any sort- even the Scotties record belongs to the other Jones. Olympic Gold but even Rhona Martin has an Olympic Gold, and Nordberg has 2 of those, along with many more world titles, world medals.

Colleen- never been to an Olympics. 2 world titles but still failed to medal in 3 of 6 trips to worlds as a Canadian team. Scotties titles record, but that alone wouldnt put her in consideration I dont think.

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04-10-17 12:08AM
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Most of you are going by wins. If any of the teams from the past played Team Homan 10 times, none of them would beat her more than 4 times. Because they are the best team ever.

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04-10-17 12:59AM
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There is no logical answer to who is the "Greatest" of all time...different eras with different equipment and way different ice conditions make this comparison apples and oranges.For example I think any of the top 6 or 8 men's teams in Canada would beat the crap out of say the top 6 or 8 teams of the 50's or 60's..Today's curlers are professional athletes while the curlers of The 50's etc were farmers,bakers and candle stick makers who curled parttime recreationally. Also kick in the 4 rock free guard world of curling and tell me how you could possibly compare.....Same as hockey...does anyone really think the great Montreal Canadiens for example in there prime years would have any chance against today's top teams..me thinks not..
Ok back to curling...my humble criteria for even being considered in the "great" world would be accomplishments...If you have won the Junior Worlds, the Men's Worlds, have a Gold Olympic Medal hanging on your neck and have obviously won a Brier you are "great" in my books...You have won everything possible that matters..how many times ? once is enough..sorry I have omitted other countries with this criteria but that does'nt matter cause we taught most of them how to curl anyway and still are.Oh and Gushue is the greatest at present,however tomorrow is another day.😁😁😁

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04-10-17 07:56AM
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quote:
Originally posted by gushuechamp


I dont know which Jones team you are even referring to but I dont think either one belongs with the 3 you mentioned.

Jennifer- only 1 world title, and no record of any sort- even the Scotties record belongs to the other Jones. Olympic Gold but even Rhona Martin has an Olympic Gold, and Nordberg has 2 of those, along with many more world titles, world medals.

Colleen- never been to an Olympics. 2 world titles but still failed to medal in 3 of 6 trips to worlds as a Canadian team. Scotties titles record, but that alone wouldnt put her in consideration I dont think.



yeah, thats my fault, i should have been more specific. i was referring to jenniffer. i myself dont think of her as best ever.

id have her behind sandra, anette and elisabet for sure . i was just saying that a lot of people do consider her the best of all time.

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04-10-17 08:40AM
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To be the best ever you have to be the most consistent over a long period of time. You cannot be considered the best if you only win 1 event even if it is the Olympics. If you are consistently winning over your competition at all events then you are probably the best of your time. I don't agree that winning specific championships mean more than others. For example why does winning the world's mean less than the Olympic? You are still beating the best at the time, just because the hype isn't there doesn't mean competition isn't. I don't think most people would think that the Jacob's team will be considered better than McEwan once they have all retired. On the same point, you have to consider the road to get to certain championships. To get out of Ontario is certainly harder than to get out of PEI or NWT. Bottom line, my vote for the greatest men's would be Glenn Howard and his teams. Best ever for women, Homan and her teams.

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04-10-17 09:47AM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1


yeah, thats my fault, i should have been more specific. i was referring to jenniffer. i myself dont think of her as best ever.

id have her behind sandra, anette and elisabet for sure . i was just saying that a lot of people do consider her the best of all time.



I dont think alot do. I think some jummp on the recency train right after Sochi, and that was all it was. Some said Colleen Jones was the best ever at the height of her dominance, and today with the recency bias worn off nobody says her. If Homan wins in Pyeongchang believe me nobody will say Jennifer Jones is the best ever, while many will still say Norberg,Schmirler, and to a lesser degree Gustafsson still are.

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04-10-17 10:51PM
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My take with all sports, is that as humanity continues to get bigger, faster & stronger, as well as having better coaching, more experience to rely on from past years of that sport, improved importance of training and nutrition, athletes from the past would fail to perform as well in todays athletics (assumes there skill level would be equal to how good they were when they played and not how they would have improved with modern things).

I think this is a great proof of this.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-ever.html?_r=0


It shows a theoretical race of all of the Olympic 100m dash medalists and how the race would end. It shows Usain bolt winning, and how many meters back every else would have been . No coincidence that the overall trend is a linear increase as athletes have become better over time.

But moving on to just curling, Let's say that Howard and Martin are basically the same generation of athlete. Todays generation (thos ein their primes right now) have been able ot learn everything from Martins generation, plus moved the sport forward with new techniques that Martin never had to use. For example, Martin never had to use a tick show as a required skill. Martin had simpler sweeping call, as in he always either used 2 sweepers or no sweepers, and then an option for clean. No high side or low side sweeping for him. Could have Martin learned these skills, absolutely. But if you took his best team in their prime with their skills in their prime, and put it up agasint todays best in their prime with with their skills, todays are going to be better.

Now put todays best back with poor ice, dead rocks, corn brooms, and they would struggle. Think about how much todays best question the ice now, imagine how they would have their minds blown back in the smoking on teh ice days.

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04-11-17 03:22PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dks
I don't think most people would think that the Jacob's team will be considered better than McEwan once they have all retired.


While I get your point i have to disagree there. If Team Jacobs and Team McEwan both retired today I think Team Jacobs would absolutely be remembered as both the greater and better team. And I am not even a fan of Team Jacobs, especialy Jacobs and Fry, in the least; and I like Team McEwan alot, but just reality.

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04-11-17 03:57PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gushuechamp


While I get your point i have to disagree there. If Team Jacobs and Team McEwan both retired today I think Team Jacobs would absolutely be remembered as both the greater and better team. And I am not even a fan of Team Jacobs, especialy Jacobs and Fry, in the least; and I like Team McEwan alot, but just reality.



agree. there. there's no doubt in my mind jacobs would be remembered as better if both retired today. brier and olympic gold trumps what mcewen has accomplished.

what has mcewen done exactly to have been remembered as better at this point. accomplishment wise

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04-11-17 08:18PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Prawnpuller
There is no logical answer to who is the "Greatest" of all time...different eras with different equipment and way different ice conditions make this comparison apples and oranges.For example I think any of the top 6 or 8 men's teams in Canada would beat the crap out of say the top 6 or 8 teams of the 50's or 60's..Today's curlers are professional athletes while the curlers of The 50's etc were farmers,bakers and candle stick makers who curled parttime recreationally. Also kick in the 4 rock free guard world of curling and tell me how you could possibly compare.....Same as hockey...does anyone really think the great Montreal Canadiens for example in there prime years would have any chance against today's top teams..me thinks not..



Exactly. Different eras mean different conditions and thus makes calling any single team or individual the 'Greatest' a waste of time. Unless all you're truly interested in is starting an argument or, in this case, generating posts.

Curlky brought up the notion of comparing Usain Bolt to past 100 Metre winners. But that's an uncomparable notion. Let's put Bolt back in 1936 Berlin with that decades equipment, training and nutrition. Does he defeat Jesse Owens? Somehow I think Owens, given the conditions he faced, may have been the better athlete than Bolt.

And so goes the argument with curling. Let's throw Brad Jacobs back in time to the 1960's with all its far more difficult conditions, make them use corn and wear leather soled shoes and see how they fare against Northcott, Richardson or Duguid. Wouldn't surprise me one bit to see those chain-smoking, whisky drinking, corn-broom sweepers mop the floor with some of todays teams.

It's not a matter, you see, of who is the most talented because the winners from each era are those who were the best given the era and the conditions of same. Who rises to the top in 2018 could be completely outclassed, because of those conditions, in 1968.

Different eras, different requirements for success so the point is simple. No single person can ever be considered the Greatest of all Time but simply the Greatest of their Era.
That, at least, is a more worthy topic for a thread.

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04-11-17 10:16PM
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While stats are a basis, another consideration is our memory and the teams success at a given time. Example, Schmirler, she was taken in her prime so she was never seen in perhaps declining years that comes with age . Homan, we are seeing her at her best right now, and again too early to see her curling legacy when done.

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04-11-17 11:35PM
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40s - Ken Watson
50s - Matt Baldwin
60s - Ernie Richardson
70s - Don Duguid
80s - Rick Folk/Alan Hackner (tie)
90s - Kevin Martin
00s - Rand Ferbey
10s - Kevin Koe (another Olympic gold and one more Brier prolly moves Gushue ahead of KK)

Note: Ken Watson won Manitoba championships in 1943, 1944 but Brier was cancelled due to war. Probably would have won 4 Briers in 40s to add to his one in 30s

Matt Baldwin won 3 Briers in 50s - has to be elevated above guys like Billy Walsh (won 2) and Garnet Campbell (undefeated in 1955), beginning of Richardson's great run in late 50s early 60s so I gave 60s to Ernie, based on 4 Briers in 5 years - Owl Northcott closed the 60s hard with 3 of his own.

70s - bit of a mish-mash - Duguid prolly could have gobbled up more than his back to backs at beginning of decade but bad nerves forced early retirement at only 36/37. Power units like Mazinke, Fry, Meleschuk could not muster up more than 1 Brier title during this decade.

80s - this is the arguable decade - The Howards were rapidly rising, Wrench was a powerhouse for a few years, but Folk and Hackner were around it all. Kerry Burtnyk could have been a contender but his Brier wins were 14 years apart (1981, 1995)

90s - don't know who I'd put behind Martin - Wayne Middaugh The Howards, R Ryan, Burtnyk was still powerful, Stoughton was starting up his trek.

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04-12-17 05:23AM
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Gotta maybe put Dordi Nordby in this conversation.

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04-12-17 07:04AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Manitoba Legend
40s - Ken Watson
50s - Matt Baldwin
60s - Ernie Richardson
70s - Don Duguid
80s - Rick Folk/Alan Hackner (tie)
90s - Kevin Martin
00s - Rand Ferbey
10s - Kevin Koe (another Olympic gold and one more Brier prolly moves Gushue ahead of KK)

Note: Ken Watson won Manitoba championships in 1943, 1944 but Brier was cancelled due to war. Probably would have won 4 Briers in 40s to add to his one in 30s

Matt Baldwin won 3 Briers in 50s - has to be elevated above guys like Billy Walsh (won 2) and Garnet Campbell (undefeated in 1955), beginning of Richardson's great run in late 50s early 60s so I gave 60s to Ernie, based on 4 Briers in 5 years - Owl Northcott closed the 60s hard with 3 of his own.

70s - bit of a mish-mash - Duguid prolly could have gobbled up more than his back to backs at beginning of decade but bad nerves forced early retirement at only 36/37. Power units like Mazinke, Fry, Meleschuk could not muster up more than 1 Brier title during this decade.

80s - this is the arguable decade - The Howards were rapidly rising, Wrench was a powerhouse for a few years, but Folk and Hackner were around it all. Kerry Burtnyk could have been a contender but his Brier wins were 14 years apart (1981, 1995)

90s - don't know who I'd put behind Martin - Wayne Middaugh The Howards, R Ryan, Burtnyk was still powerful, Stoughton was starting up his trek.



I disagree with some of those.

90s- I put Stoughton 1st in the 90s, not Martin. Stoughton won the Brier twice, just like Martin, but he won gold and silver at worlds vs Martin's silver and 4th. Neither made the Olympics.

2000s- I like to consider the end of the 2009-2010 season the end of the decade, so that said I put Martin 1st for the decade since Ferbey/Nedohin team never even made the Olympics while Martin has Olympic Gold and silver to go with his Brier wins, Olympic Trials win, and world gold and silver.

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04-12-17 08:50AM
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Don't know to what extent but seems to me it should be noted that a few of ferbys briers were at a time when the other big teams were protesting and not competing.

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04-12-17 09:21AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
Don't know to what extent but seems to me it should be noted that a few of ferbys briers were at a time when the other big teams were protesting and not competing.


That said, the Ferbey 4 were pretty darn good.

Martin and perhaps Stoughton (on his better days) are the only ones capable of derailing the Ferbey train - they were that good. Both Martin and Ferbey were perhaps the greatest individual 4th shooters of all time - while Ferbey was only adequate as a 4th player - he needed to rely on David Ned from Planet Zed to make a ton of spectacular shots.

Ferbey has one advantage as his team, like Sandra Schmirler featured pretty much the same lineup throughout its heyday.

Both Martin & Stoughton (particularly Martin) were prickly performers who relied on a myriad of different players at different positions over both their storied careers.

ss far as thinkers are concerned I'd rate Martin #1 in this category with Ferbey #2 and Stoughton #3.

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04-12-17 12:23PM
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quote:
Originally posted by misty1
As in with every sport there is never going to be consensus best ever. every one of the greats has their group of fans that will never concede to anyone else.possibly the most volatile discussion ever is williams v.s graf in tennis

in mens curling its widely agreed kevin martin but there are those that would argue for glenn howard or russ howard. i myself argue its russ howard

in the womens game there are the big 4 : norberg, gustafson, jones and schmirler and in time there will be homan and perhaps muirhead.

i myself am of the belief that schmirler on both a team perspective and individual perspective is the best ever and always will be. not only because of her accomplishments but because of the fact that when she got to the international level she won. 4 appearances representing canada and 4 golds. thats impressive. i cant help but think she'd have more if she hadnt been taken so soon

but ultimately its a debate that will never end.



It's not about fan groups, it's about who's won the most.

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Reid Carruthers wins Canad Inns Mens Classic

Reid Carruthers wins Canad Inns Mens Classic

Reid Carruthers (Winnipeg, MB) wins the Canad Inns Men's Classic, defeating Glenn Howard (Islington, ON) 6-1 at the Portage Curling Club in Portage La Prairie, Canada.

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