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albetts
Drawmaster

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 821

Shannon and Heather

I just read this on twitter and wanted to share it. I have mixed emotions about this but a fifth is a fifth no matter what position they play.IMHO Enjoy.

http://www.tsn.ca/kleibrink-nedohin...otties-1.672458

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Old Post 02-15-17 08:11PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 415

Agree

Isn't that the whole idea of having a 5th? To fill in as required? No different if it's skip or lead.

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Old Post 02-15-17 08:23PM
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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 2345

it is a five man team

its cheating

i hope they lose every game

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Old Post 02-16-17 04:05AM
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Justintwiss
Administrator

Registered: Oct 2013
Location: St.Claude
Posts: 128

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
it is a five man team

its cheating

i hope they lose every game



Its not cheating in any way at all. There are a few teams that have 5 person teams and rotate players all year due to work, family, or other issues.

If you think its cheating then please show everyone where in the rules does it say you cant have 5 people listed and rotate them in the lineup?

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Old Post 02-16-17 08:50AM
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rbunten
Knee-Slider

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 7

Cheating? Are you serious?
How are they cheating?

The role of a fifth is well established in both the rules and precedent.

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Old Post 02-16-17 08:56AM
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propane_cooker
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location: Manitoba
Posts: 50

Maybe a little unconventional, but definitely not cheating. I don't think it's that big a deal... lots of teams have done stuff like this, Scotland mens team with Brewster and Murdoch did this didn't they? I seem to recall the Asian teams doing some swapping at skip and they bring a 5th man in if someone isn't preforming well.

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Old Post 02-16-17 09:17AM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10848

Its definitely cheating if they find an algorithm which maximizes both Shannon & Heather's strong games - and eliminates their off or out-of-sorts ones!

I think they'll stick to their announced rotation - unless Shannon re=aggravates her back - conversely I think Shannon assumes more games if Heather isn't winning!

I assume Shannon gets the call if they make playoffs!

Another possibility I only touched on briefly is that if 3rd Lisa Eyamie is overcome by 1st STOH nerves - perhaps they rotate Heather in for Lisa?

Lots of possibilities with a veteran super-shooter like Heather all hepped up and ready to come off the bench!!

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Old Post 02-16-17 09:46AM
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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 2345

i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating

ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport

the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...

i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game

answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "

" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "

question. what is the definition of cheating



the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)

whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off


if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..


my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..

plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )

Last edited by fresca on 02-16-17 at 11:27AM

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Old Post 02-16-17 11:06AM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 415

5th

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating

ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport

the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...

i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game

answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "

" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "

question. what is the definition of cheating



the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)

whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off


if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..


my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..

plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )







To quote my inner Iverson, " 5th playa, 5th playa.... we talkin' bout 5th playa. Cheating? No, 5th playa."

You can't seriously think using a 5th is cheating. If anything it is to the detriment to the team forced to do so. There's no continuity using 2 different players especially at skip.

And the definition of cheating is "Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation by dishonest means. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation"

They key phrase breaking of rules. No rule is broken by using a declared 5th player during the game and or games.

So, all in for 5th playa!

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Ajay
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
Posts: 339

5 th playa. One of the early diversions of the "intended" use of a 5 th player. Many of you will remember Gushue going ( easy to qualify out of nfl with his ability and commitment) to the Olympic trials. As Stoughton said, "didn't have the chance of a snowball in hell to win", and he didn't. However , he pushed one of his players out, put his 5 th in as Skip, who just happened to be the most winningest curler of the day, Russ Howard, who went on to win the trials by a measure and than won the Olympic gold with Russ skipping and Nicholl shooting "lights out" at third. Brad took all the accolades for that gold and rarely if ever gave credit to the actual skip of that rink. Contrary to the perception, Brad has not won a meaningful spiel as a skip, a number of slams, yes.

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Old Post 02-16-17 02:49PM
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IN-OFF-FOR-2
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2013
Location:
Posts: 415

Russ Howard was never the 5th player. The forgotten man, Mike Adam unselfishly and bravely stepped down from 2nd to be the 5th to allow Russ to be 2nd. Gushue was still "SKIP" but Russ threw 2nd and called the game. One of the smartest roster moves in history. Good young team with one of the greatest minds calling the game. All credit must be given to Mike Adam for allowing this to happen.

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Old Post 02-16-17 04:21PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 418

quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
5 th playa. One of the early diversions of the "intended" use of a 5 th player. Many of you will remember Gushue going ( easy to qualify out of nfl with his ability and commitment) to the Olympic trials. As Stoughton said, "didn't have the chance of a snowball in hell to win", and he didn't. However , he pushed one of his players out, put his 5 th in as Skip, who just happened to be the most winningest curler of the day, Russ Howard, who went on to win the trials by a measure and than won the Olympic gold with Russ skipping and Nicholl shooting "lights out" at third. Brad took all the accolades for that gold and rarely if ever gave credit to the actual skip of that rink. Contrary to the perception, Brad has not won a meaningful spiel as a skip, a number of slams, yes.


Totally off-topic, but it has always irked me a bit that the more time passes, the more that gold seems to be attributed to 'Brad Gushue and his team'. It's kind of like saying Dave Nedohin won all those titles and Randy Ferbey was just along for the ride.

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Old Post 02-16-17 04:24PM
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darkwing01
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 52

Randy never made the big pressure shot with the game on the line. I can say draw the edge of the button against 3 to win a
Brier. Dave made the big shots.

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:00PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating

ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport

the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...

i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game

answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "

" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "

question. what is the definition of cheating



the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)

whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off


if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..


my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..

plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )



As a provincial curling champion, and a competitive athlete in multiple other sports, I'll refute you on many points, including your horrific grasp of the English language. As a former chef, I'm fine handling regular plates, utensils, and knives as well.

A fifth man in curling isn't cheating. The rules allow for every team to bring an alternate player with them. The alternate player is eligible to be substituted for any player on the team. This is written right into the rules. You can't say it's cheating if it's in the rules. It's not even breaking the spirit of the rule. Nowhere does it say the alternate player has to be used for emergencies only. Teams are free to use the alternate player as they see fit.

I've never been on a team with an alternate/fifth player. I wouldn't join a team that had those intentions, but that's because I believe a team is better when all players are practicing and playing the game together. A fifth breaks up this cohesion. There are teams that need it due to work, family etc. Fleury's team was a notable example last year. Having a five man/woman team is not being dishonest or unfair. It is within the rules, they aren't hiding it, and every single team has the same opportunity to have a five man team.

Your other example of cheating is also laughable. Once again, every curler has the opportunity to earn these benefits, but to gain them you have to sacrifice many things. Why should every curler get a piece of the funding if they aren't willing to work for it? One of the goals of Curl Canada is to have champions at world and Olympic championships. They've done a pretty good job at this lately. They've inspired junior curlers to go after their own Olympic dreams. The curlers who are chasing WCT points are giving up time with their family, friends, jobs, career ambitions, etc. They should be rewarded for it. Instead of complaining that the system is unfair, maybe get off the computer and try and get these dollars yourself. Winners focus on winning. Losers focus on winners. It's easy to see who you focus on.

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:09PM
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Ajay
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2014
Location:
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Firstly,Russ was brought aboard as the 5 th. Secondly, in curling, the one who calls the game is always the skip, regardless of who throws last rocks. And yes it has also always irked me that he has assumed that Olympic gold to be his and not including Russ. For the record, he has developed into a very fine curler and representative of the sport.

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:13PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10848

quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
Firstly,Russ was brought aboard as the 5 th. Secondly, in curling, the one who calls the game is always the skip, regardless of who throws last rocks. And yes it has also always irked me that he has assumed that Olympic gold to be his and not including Russ. For the record, he has developed into a very fine curler and representative of the sport.


I can go back in history with the best (and worst) of them. Russ was brought aboard as "Gushue's Brain", something I called him from the get-go.

Brad was simply not ready to call intricate shots, profer strategy and harness the tremendous shot-making potential on Team Gushue. Nichols & Goo were both young punks with exceptional abilities - they also were running on extra petrol provided by Hillbilly Jeff who unwittingly demeaned Team Gushue as "No Chancers" before the event began!

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:37PM
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jamcan
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: vernon bc
Posts: 2142

Shannon has an injured back. The job of a 5th is to step in when there is an issue of sickness or injury. Which is precisely what Heather Nedohin did. My bet is that if Shannon's back is healthy, Nedohin won't step on the ice all week.

Injury=legal replacement as clearly stipulated in the rules. Ergo, no cheating and fresca is just being a knob.

As well, bringing up the Howard/Gushue team is being a knob. That was a totally different situation which has absolutely nothing to do with the Kliebrink team.

Good luck to Team Alberta and all the other ladies at the STOH.

__________________
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Old Post 02-16-17 06:44PM
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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
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Posts: 2345

squigsy

not necessary to repeat my written in stone verbatim

if you think its not cheating im serving you with paper plates and plastic spoons so you dont steal the good stuff

are you a woman curler ? which province yukon ?

do you know shannon or heather ?

in off. i got my definition from the dictionary

alternating skips is cheating - i said clearly i had no problem with 5th players in emergencies


jeeze louise , what time do they start drinking out east

Last edited by fresca on 02-16-17 at 10:46PM

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:53PM
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darkwing01
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Nov 2016
Location:
Posts: 52

quote:
Originally posted by Ajay
Firstly,Russ was brought aboard as the 5 th. Secondly, in curling, the one who calls the game is always the skip, regardless of who throws last rocks. And yes it has also always irked me that he has assumed that Olympic gold to be his and not including Russ. For the record, he has developed into a very fine curler and representative of the sport.


The Gold medal Brad has belongs to him, the other 4 players have one to that belong to them that they won as a team.

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Old Post 02-16-17 06:57PM
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Manitoba Legend
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Hovel of Fame
Posts: 10848

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
squigsy

not necessary to repeat my written in stone verbatim

if you think its not cheating im serving you with paper plates and plastic spoons so you dont steal the good stuff

are you a woman curler ? which province yukon ?


in off. i got my definition from the dictionary

alternating skips is cheating - i said clearly i had no problem with 5th players in emergencies


jeeze louise , what time do they start drinking out east



Funniest series we've ever done on Curling Zone. worthy!
When you used the word 'psychos' in a prior post I could just imagine business about to pick up in Guido Sarducci's cell.

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Old Post 02-16-17 07:03PM
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Squiggsy
Swing Artist

Registered: Apr 2008
Location:
Posts: 228

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
squigsy

not necessary to repeat my written in stone verbatim

if you think its not cheating im serving you with paper plates and plastic spoons so you dont steal the good stuff

are you a woman curler ? which province yukon ?


in off. i got my definition from the dictionary

alternating skips is cheating - i said clearly i had no problem with 5th players in emergencies


jeeze louise , what time do they start drinking out east



Well, you're wrong on many more things again, but I bet that happens to you often. I don't need your "good stuff" from IKEA. My Henckels suit me just fine.

Do you think Yukon is in the east? Either way I'm a male from, and won in, a western province.

I know you said you had no problems with emergencies. I wasn't disputing that. I am disputing how the fifth/alternate player can enter the game. The rules clearly state it can be in any situation. Alternating skips isn't cheating. If it was, there would be at least one top level curler who would have said something. The only person who thinks it's cheating is you. I can't find one, literally one, other person who thinks it's cheating. Either fight to change the rule, or accept it. You can't call someone a cheater for following the rules. Well, you can, but you'd be wrong.

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Old Post 02-16-17 07:13PM
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Nine Ender
Swing Artist

Registered: Feb 2009
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Posts: 299

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
i was a minor provincial competitive curler from the the fifties to the eighties so i set my moral compass to reflect what other competitive players likely think about a five person team - hence cheating

ii doubt that the 4 or 5 posters that think its not cheating were EVER competitive in any sport

the fifth person should be used for emergencies only. ... never could figure out why anyone would sit on the bench for 11 games ...

i was in favour of the 5th person being inserted a few times during a scot or brier ... that seemed only fair .. even thou it was the last end or a nothing game

answer. " to act dishonestly or unfairly to gain an advantage, especially in a game or an examination "

" avoid ( something undesirable) by luck or skill "

question. what is the definition of cheating



the reason they would use nedohin is because shannon is not fit enough to go the week ( perhaps)

whats next
designated sweeper
replacing a draw lead with a tic specialist after you get 4 up
new skip after 5 ends
substituting a player for someone shooting 25%
when down four substituting a normal player with a flatulent player from the bar to throw the oppostion off


if you cant see how this is cheating , let me know when you come to dinner so i dont put the sterling out... plastic fork and paper plates for you ..


my next topic will be how cheating also occurrs in curl canada funding 4 or 5 top teams with $200,000 cash $$$$$$$ for two years - some multiple times ..

plus providing inside information, coaches , psychiatrists for the psychos, expenses and who knows what else to 20 people - at the expense of the other 25 tier 2 teams - aka cheating ( see def above )



You're ridiculous and out of touch. Most sports adapt over time, you seemingly got left behind. Reminds me how Alberta curling orgs resisted the FGZ initially because it supposedly was going to ruin the game.

ps You don't understand what the term "cheating" means.

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fresca
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Oct 2008
Location:
Posts: 2345

alternating skips is taking advantage of the rules ...

i am entitled to an opinion

just like broomgate was cheating and i called that one from day one

and btw some brushers are bending the rules too ...


btw i dont drink smoke or cheat

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Old Post 02-16-17 08:21PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 418

quote:
Originally posted by fresca
alternating skips is taking advantage of the rules ...


wait, so does it fall within the rules or doesn't it?

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Old Post 02-16-17 10:19PM
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southerncurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
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This thread is a waste of database space

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Old Post 02-16-17 10:35PM
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