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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2574

It is Year To Date top 25. Brownie was 26th and Face was 31st. True for Roth, but their points lead makes it superfluous.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 02-10-17 10:26PM
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curlinghoot
Knee-Slider

Registered: Mar 2011
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2

You have to wonder why any team invited to the Grand Slams would go in the future (I think the HPP makes these decisions for those teams and getting invited to a Grand Slam is an "honor")if you are trying to earn points for Nationals.

Shuster went to 3 or 4 because his ranking on the 2 year OOM was high enough to qualify them. In all but the last one he would have been one of the lowest seeds. Not surprising he doesn't win many games because after all you are ranked LOWER than all the other teams. You get no points. The other US teams are busy competing at bonspiels where they rank relatively high and earn points.

Your team challenges itself against "the best" and what happens you won't be selected for Worlds even if you win Nationals because you don't have enough points. Yikes!

This is just one of many crazy ways the current system does not achieve what it intended.

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Old Post 02-12-17 03:34AM
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 137

Correct, Roth goes to Worlds if she wins. "Make final..." means she only has to make the final to ensure she will have more points than anyone else.

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Old Post 02-12-17 04:32AM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5032

wow, mccormick got smoked by birr in draw 1. didnt see that coming

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Old Post 02-12-17 09:46AM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 907

I understand that the OOM is all the USCA has to determine a "Best over the Season" to represent us at Worlds...(this assumes you buy the argument that is necessary vs just crowning a National Champion at NAtionals....which I don't...but for the purpose of argument, that ship has already sailed, struck an iceberg, sunk, and launched an Academy Award Winning movie...)

But we really need something else.

As curlinghoot mentioned, and tuck has chimed in on occasion, and others have noted...the way OOM works doesn't actually reward the best US team at curling, it rewards the best scheduled team.

It's worth more to go 3-2 at the Moosejaw Invitational than it is to go 5-0 at any other events, and that's just not right.

People equate it to NASCAR awarding points season long...here's the rub...in NASCAR, all the cars are on the same tracks at the same time, so it's an apples to apples comparison.

In Curling, that is hardly the case...your status is too heavily dependent now on what events you choose to go to versus how you actually do *at* those events.

It's gotta change.

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Old Post 02-12-17 11:15AM
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TJNCJ
Swing Artist

Registered: Nov 2008
Location:
Posts: 208

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
wow, mccormick got smoked by birr in draw 1. didnt see that coming


McCormick was sitting 3 in the first with 3 stones left and gave up two.

In the second he was sitting 2 with the hammer and skip stones left and gave up 4.

Birr made his shots, McCormick jammed a raise take in the first and came up short of the house twice in the 2nd.

First game issues, he'll be fine.

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Old Post 02-12-17 12:05PM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2574

Boo Boo thumping Heater isn't that big of a surprise for 3 reasons:

1. Boo Boo has defeated Heater this year. Once that I remember for certain...maybe twice...I'd look it up but I'm going to play some poker this afternoon.

2. Heater has dropped some "bad beat" inexplicable losses in about 60% of his weekends with this lineup. They just sleep through a game here and there. They dropped a game to Russia in Harbin when Russia wasn't playing well at all. They dropped a game to Krell up in Canada (Krell is actually pretty good...but not that weekend). They dropped a game to McBride at Mesabi (something that team will long remember...when they tell the story, they may elect to leave out that Plys wasn't there and Phill D. was subbing in...for the last time ever). They dropped a game to Clawson in Duluth before we all discovered that Clawson can beat some Men's teams (something we should have learned after the Florida Nationals)

3. Tuck told you early in this thread that the field was pretty even with many teams having a legit shot (including Boo Boo Birr). This Tuck guy seems to know some things...not everything...but some things. I think we should listen to him.

More important in the standings will be Fenson's loss to Leichter. Of the teams with Points (Brownie, Boo Boo, Heater, Face and Brady), I could see maybe 2 missing the playoffs...maybe. That only leaves one spot open for the other 5 teams who don't have many points (just using Points as a replacement for Seeding). I see no likely scenario where both Fenson and Leichter make the playoffs, so that game was big.

I think it's much bigger than Boo Boo "upsetting" Heater...which isn't really that much of an upset...except for the lopsided scoreboard...so lopsided that it probably fell over.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 02-12-17 02:45PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5032

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Boo Boo thumping Heater isn't that big of a surprise for 3 reasons:

1. Boo Boo has defeated Heater this year. Once that I remember for certain...maybe twice...I'd look it up but I'm going to play some poker this afternoon.

2. Heater has dropped some "bad beat" inexplicable losses in about 60% of his weekends with this lineup. They just sleep through a game here and there. They dropped a game to Russia in Harbin when Russia wasn't playing well at all. They dropped a game to Krell up in Canada (Krell is actually pretty good...but not that weekend). They dropped a game to McBride at Mesabi (something that team will long remember...when they tell the story, they may elect to leave out that Plys wasn't there and Phill D. was subbing in...for the last time ever). They dropped a game to Clawson in Duluth before we all discovered that Clawson can beat some Men's teams (something we should have learned after the Florida Nationals)

3. Tuck told you early in this thread that the field was pretty even with many teams having a legit shot (including Boo Boo Birr). This Tuck guy seems to know some things...not everything...but some things. I think we should listen to him.

More important in the standings will be Fenson's loss to Leichter. Of the teams with Points (Brownie, Boo Boo, Heater, Face and Brady), I could see maybe 2 missing the playoffs...maybe. That only leaves one spot open for the other 5 teams who don't have many points (just using Points as a replacement for Seeding). I see no likely scenario where both Fenson and Leichter make the playoffs, so that game was big.

I think it's much bigger than Boo Boo "upsetting" Heater...which isn't really that much of an upset...except for the lopsided scoreboard...so lopsided that it probably fell over.

Ben Tucker



its not so much that they lost to birr but how they lost. but TJNCJ said they were struggling with the ice a bit so i guess that explains the scoreline anyway.

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Old Post 02-12-17 03:17PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5032

Wow McCormick loses again. It's looking entirely possible McCormick finishes outside the top 3

If that's the case who goes to worlds? I'm guessing either brown or shuster if either one win

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Old Post 02-13-17 07:14AM
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curlky
Drawmaster

Registered: Oct 2013
Location:
Posts: 501

quote:
Originally posted by AlanMacNeill
It's worth more to go 3-2 at the Moosejaw Invitational than it is to go 5-0 at any other events, and that's just not right.


Please explain this logic to me. Are you saying that a 5-0 record versus inferior talent is better than a 3-2 record versus superior talent?

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Old Post 02-13-17 02:04PM
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biterbar
Drawmaster

Registered: Mar 2009
Location:
Posts: 554

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Please explain this logic to me. Are you saying that a 5-0 record versus inferior talent is better than a 3-2 record versus superior talent?



Shuster goes 3-3 in a tough Canad Men's and gets 4.3 points, McCormick goes 3-2 and makes the QF's of the Wrench Classic and gets 17.4 points.

McCormick wins the The Coors and St. Paul's and takes home 23.5 points for each going 6-1.

Pays more to win at a lighter spiel than gain valuable experience in Canada.

__________________
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire"-Winston Churchill

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Old Post 02-13-17 03:06PM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5032

mccormick 1-3 and in serious trouble early of missing playoffs. surprising

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Old Post 02-13-17 07:56PM
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IMWright
Hitting Paint

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 183

quote:
Originally posted by misty1
mccormick 1-3 and in serious trouble early of missing playoffs. surprising


I think McCormick's been a bit hot and cold. Either completely on or completely off. And the events he won were not against a particularly difficult field. In events with tough fields McCormick has bowed out early, one I think was 0-3.

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Old Post 02-13-17 08:07PM
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AlanMacNeill
Drawmaster

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 907

quote:
Originally posted by curlky


Please explain this logic to me. Are you saying that a 5-0 record versus inferior talent is better than a 3-2 record versus superior talent?



I"m saying the formula for OOM points says so, yeah.

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Old Post 02-13-17 08:38PM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

Looks like there are more people watching on webcast than in the arena. Not counting family members, is anybody going to arena to watch the championship?

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Old Post 02-14-17 12:17AM
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southerncurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2015
Location:
Posts: 60

I'll be there for the morning game on Wednesday. Looks like I'll have a choice of any seat in the arena.

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Old Post 02-14-17 04:30AM
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curlerbroad
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2025

Who is Becca Wood? That poor team has had some pretty lopsided scores!

__________________
Well Behaved Women Don't Make History.

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Old Post 02-14-17 08:40AM
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tuck
Super Rockchucker

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: St. Thomas, North Dakota
Posts: 2574

Which is more surprising; Heater's slow start in Men's or Cassie's fast start in Women's?

Both are surprising, but Cassie's start surprises me a touch more. She is a great curler, but they haven't shown much all year. A nice runner-up finish at Mesabi and a couple of quality wins at the US Open, so I guess they are coming in to Nationals playing well.

Ben Tucker

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Old Post 02-14-17 08:51AM
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misty1
Supreme Champion!

Registered: Sep 2011
Location:
Posts: 5032

quote:
Originally posted by tuck
Which is more surprising; Heater's slow start in Men's or Cassie's fast start in Women's?

Both are surprising, but Cassie's start surprises me a touch more. She is a great curler, but they haven't shown much all year. A nice runner-up finish at Mesabi and a couple of quality wins at the US Open, so I guess they are coming in to Nationals playing well.

Ben Tucker



for me its definitely mccormick's slow start. IMWright is correct in pointing out that the events they won had weaker fields . still i didnt see this coming. the question is if they can mount a comeback and make the playoffs. on paper they should be favored in all of their remaining matches which, if they win would finish at 6-3

however clark is playing well, clawson is dangerous and fenson is so experienced and still pretty good.

if this team finishes outside the playoffs i wouldnt be surprised to see changes made.

but at this point if mccormick misses playoffs its down to shuster and brown correct? what happens if shuster v.s brown is the final would the winner go to worlds?

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Old Post 02-14-17 09:20AM
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 137

I'm not saying the current system is correct or works in the overall sense, but are you sure it's not working as the HPP intended?

Looking at the top five US YTD OOM teams (McCormick, Brown, Shuster, Clark and Birr), there were seven events where at least four of them entered. Four events had four teams and three events had all five teams. Those seven events make up 60% of the events the five teams entered, so it's a decent apples-to-apples comparison. Comparing their results in those seven events (ranking them 1 for most OOM points earned, 4 or 5 for least points earned) and then summarizing their performances gives some interesting results:

Team (common events) - Highest, lowest and average rank (points earned)
McCormick (7) - 1 (32.8), 2 (2.8), 1.1 (23.2)
Brown (6) - 1 (18.5), 3 (2.8), 2.2 (14.0)
Shuster (5) - 1 (24.6), 5 (1.8), 2.8 (12.1)
Birr (6) - 1 (19.9), 5 (1.0), 2.8 (9.5)
Clark (7) - 2 (10.1), 4 (0.7), 3.7 (4.1)

It's pretty clear that McCormick had the best results in common events, and, with the exception of Birr and Clark, the results ape the YTD OOM rankings. The Birr and Clark difference can be attributed to Clark playing in 12 events (to 8 for Birr), and two of those being Tier 2 events where he got 20+ points in each.

If anything, the non-common events helped Brown, Shuster and Clark close the YTD OOM gap on McCormick.

Team (total events played) - Top 3 points
McCormick (10) - 11.6, 3.1 & 3.0
Brown (11) - 28.7, 11.7 & 8.4
Shuster (11) - 35.1, 8.4 & 6.8
Clark (12) - 20.6, 20.3, 11.7
Birr (8) - 11.7 & 3.0 (only two non-common events)

So it appears that what events you enter doesn't matter as much as winning in those events.

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Old Post 02-14-17 09:22AM
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MCC_PE
Hitting Paint

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 137

If McCormick doesn't finish third or higher, then Brown, Shuster and Clark all control their own fate: Win and go to Worlds.

Birr could win and not go to Worlds, if Brown or Shuster also makes the final.

Even if they win, it is not likely that Fenson, Clawson, Dropkin, Leichter or Sobring will go to Worlds.

Last edited by MCC_PE on 02-14-17 at 09:55AM

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Old Post 02-14-17 09:25AM
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dbsdbs
Drawmaster

Registered: Feb 2013
Location:
Posts: 757

There was a time when USCA said championship had to use Page playoff so teams get used to the pressure that playoff brought at worlds. Then USCA said championships should be played in an arena to get used to venue used at worlds. And then USCA said teams had to finish not lower than 3rd place at championship to get used to.... oh never mmind.

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Old Post 02-14-17 12:15PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 420

quote:
Originally posted by dbsdbs
Looks like there are more people watching on webcast than in the arena. Not counting family members, is anybody going to arena to watch the championship?


I have the livestream on in the background right now, and I just caught a wide shot of the arena. I counted about a dozen people in the stands - no exaggeration.

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Old Post 02-14-17 12:32PM
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averagecurler
Harvey Hacksmasher

Registered: Jan 2016
Location:
Posts: 21

quote:
Originally posted by nelsosi


I have the livestream on in the background right now, and I just caught a wide shot of the arena. I counted about a dozen people in the stands - no exaggeration.



Well it is the middle of a Tuesday. More people will watch the stream at work than skip work to go to the event.

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Old Post 02-14-17 01:21PM
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nelsosi
Swing Artist

Registered: Mar 2012
Location: YYZ, Canada
Posts: 420

quote:
Originally posted by curlerbroad
Who is Becca Wood? That poor team has had some pretty lopsided scores!

They've now lost 12-1, 10-0, 14-5 and 15-0.
I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but how did this team qualify for the Championship?

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Old Post 02-14-17 04:22PM
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