Registered: Mar 2009
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Does anyone know if there is any money given out at the pretrials for the qualifying teams?

how about ctrs points?

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2091

No money is being given out as far as I know, but I do know they will be handling out CTRS points at the event.

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Registered: Nov 2004
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Posts: 32

quote:

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I do know they will be handling out CTRS points at the event.

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Lets not get started with how CTRS points are handed out. The Ontario tour hands out inflated points every week. Now as far as the pretrials go, most of these teams have been grinding this year. Most are giving up chances to earn more points in other bonspiels. These points mean a LOT to these teams. Guys like Gunner, Appleman, and Simmons, are all right on the bubble for slam invites. I don't necessarily agree with the points per win, but it seems to be a small consolation prize for the grinding that these teams have done. It will likely be 2 points per win, so a team that doesn't qualify could earn what, 6 points max for being there. These teams could go out and qualify at a spiel or win one this weekend, and get 15 to 20 points. Why should they sacrifice the whole works? Food for thought.....AB spiel that included Ferbey, Ursel, Appleman, Simmons, and Burtnyk, be worth much fewer points than a spiel with Matchett as a headliner. I'll tell you why, 16 teams vs 32 teams in Ontario. Sorry but it's a lot easier to earn points in a weak Ontario tour event than anywhere else. It's not about the rich getting richer, it's about fairness and equality. Take the OOM value of the top 10 teams in a spiel. Eliminate the rest of the field's points, all those .05's and .1's add up when you have 20 of them. Does it make a tougher spiel to pad the multiplier with these teams, not a chance.

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Registered: Sep 2005
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Posts: 182

quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
Lets not get started with how CTRS points are handed out. The Ontario tour hands out inflated points every week. Now as far as the pretrials go, most of these teams have been grinding this year. Most are giving up chances to earn more points in other bonspiels. These points mean a LOT to these teams. Guys like Gunner, Appleman, and Simmons, are all right on the bubble for slam invites. I don't necessarily agree with the points per win, but it seems to be a small consolation prize for the grinding that these teams have done. It will likely be 2 points per win, so a team that doesn't qualify could earn what, 6 points max for being there. These teams could go out and qualify at a spiel or win one this weekend, and get 15 to 20 points. Why should they sacrifice the whole works? Food for thought.....AB spiel that included Ferbey, Ursel, Appleman, Simmons, and Burtnyk, be worth much fewer points than a spiel with Matchett as a headliner. I'll tell you why, 16 teams vs 32 teams in Ontario. Sorry but it's a lot easier to earn points in a weak Ontario tour event than anywhere else. It's not about the rich getting richer, it's about fairness and equality. Take the OOM value of the top 10 teams in a spiel. Eliminate the rest of the field's points, all those .05's and .1's add up when you have 20 of them. Does it make a tougher spiel to pad the multiplier with these teams, not a chance.

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Registered: Nov 2009
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well it seems like there is reason to get excited here so dont mind if i chime in a little.... the comment about the ole boys club is spot on!... as much as they are all great, and might still be the best... i cant wait for some fresh faces in the mix... mcewan, appelman, gushue, ursel, and gunnelwhatsit(sorry bout the spelling).. are the new faces... i know im cheering for all of these teams to come out of the pretrials.. but anyhow,,

as far as the whole points thing goes.. i see no problem... take a look at the teams that are in this event... they arent the "rich getting richer" at all... aside from burtnyk, stoughton, and middaugh.. these teams are all fairly young(oops macauly)... . these teams have worked there butts off competing on the wct collecting enough points to qualify for this event... why shouldnt they be rewarded by treating this event as regular event that gives points for qualifying... or even a slam that gives points per win. I think its a great idea... i even think there should be some cash reward for the qualifiers... but i dont know what the story is there.

as far as the good ole UNREGISTEREDs comments about the ontario tour... spot on again....
inflated is the best word for it... im not trying to knock anyone, or any teams .. im sure your all amazing people... but the fact of the matter is... 32 teams with a .05 or .1 is not a better speil than a 16 team speil, with 5 or 6 pre trials and trials teams... but thats my opinion i guess.

and the last comment about one person getting enough points to have there three buddies curl with them... well now thats just silly...

come on GERRY... you cant let alll this sillyness in here all the time... if everyone wanted the sillyness there would be a special forum called the sillyness forum... come to think of it ... maybe there should be a sillyness forum.. then all the silly people would have a silly place to share all the sillly sillyness!

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Registered: Dec 2008
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Posts: 21

quote:

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all the silly people would have a silly place to share all the sillly sillyness!

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I think the least of our worries is that the teams playing in the pre-trials are earning points. At least these teams earned their way over the past three or so years to this event. What I don't find just is how the most recent SLAM event (a 14 team invitational event) gives out full SLAM value points to teams that merely were invited. Yes I know that half of the teams there did deserve the invite but how is that fair to the other ten or so teams on the OOM list that should have realistically been given the chance to collect points in this first slam. Sure it is an Olympic year and all the hype is there to have the international teams involved but that doesn't mean you have to penalize the rest of the tour teams that may be on the bubble trying to make a move for the players Championship. Especially this year since the Player Championship is opening up eligibility to world teams. I dont think any points should have been awarded at this event. Even the PGA doesnt award points in any invitational events.

As for the Ontario (Inflated) Tour.... I agree something needs to be done. There is no way that a spiel with 6 pretrial teams (Saville Shootout) should be worth less than an Ontario Tour spiel with a full line up of 32 non Olympic trial teams all holding minimal CTRS values. Something needs to change... maybe only take into account the top 10 teams in the spiel instead of the total field? Just some food for thought..

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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 79

Name me the three teams who beat Glenn Howard twice last season:

Martin, Ferbey, Burtnyk, Stoughton, McEwen and Matchett! Not bad company.

I'd stack up Matchett against any of the bottom tier Slam teams and he'd do just fine. Losing two qualifier games (Martin/Stoughton) is a fine showing at their first PC.

Finally Ontario has the chance to compete with the West, the previous system was so horribly inflated the other way. More good teams in Ontario then you guys know about, why don't you come play here if it's so easy?

BDO last year, It's Howard/Bice in the final. Sunlife it's Howard/Menard. Lots of Ontario content on top of that.

If Ontario was so easy, why can't Middaugh win the OCT Championships? Knocked out in Semi's last two years. Didn't even make provincials last year?

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: mb
Posts: 147

Teams deserve points for both events. 100%!! How is it fair to the teams invited to miss weekend when they would be otherwise not earning points elsewhere? The teams in the Pre-Trials burn two weekends they could be competing elsewhere! Same for the International GS Event for one weekend, Stoughton wins Portages and earns almost as many points as Howard. Should those teams be penalized?

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Registered: Nov 2009
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CTRS and Order of Merit have NEVER been about fairness and equality.... For years it was the West who benefitted from a skewed system.....

Ontario, Quebec and Atlantic Canada always got screwed because the only place to early points was in the west, because points were based on money.....

West put more money into events, but this doesn't mean they should buy their way into Slams.....

Ontario figured out how to build points by running lots of events..... Good events, I've travelled to a couple..... I wish we could get are **** together in the Maritimes to do the same......

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary
Posts: 512

No system is perfect. If the East thinks it's unfair the West spiels are worth more points because there's more money involved (more money does bring out tougher teams) ... then raise some money and get the top teams out East. If the West thinks it's unfair that East spiels are worth more because they have more teams at the spiel ... organize spiels with more teams.

One thing I know for sure, is that if both sides are complaining, then it's gotta be pretty close to fair.

The system is set up to give the top teams more points ... but then again, these guys still win events like New West, or Olds where there are lower ranked teams who get a shot at them.

Besides if you want into the "club" then go out and win a few lower ranked spiels like Appelman did and you'll find yourself at a big event. Same with McEwan, same with Gunnlaughson and then Gushue and Simmons from a few years back. It's not impossible ... you just gotta win events.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Winterpeg
Posts: 124

quote:

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Originally posted by Rain Man


So you are in agreement that the system is flawed based on your argument. I agree with Chubb there should be no CTRS points awarded at a pretrial’s event or for winning a game at a slam. Eventually you will find an individual will have enough points to qualify for a slam by himself so he can bring his buddies to play one weekend
Dave Elias

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Winterpeg
Posts: 124

Points

I think the system we have now is good. There is only one change that I would make to the points system. I would take out team registration from CTRS and make all teams eligible for CTRS. Ive played on the tour and have worked my way into the slam events. It is not easy let me tell you.

The differences in points given out each province is the biggest difference. A bonspiel in Ontario is often worth way more points than a bonspiel in Manitoba as an example. The teams in Manitoba that dont care about qualifying for slams dont register for CTRS points.

This is not me saying that ontario is inflated. They just do a better job of making sure you register for CTRS.

Each team that registers will then bring up the Strength of Field Multiplier and will increase the amount of points given out. 2 equal strength teams in each province end up having different point totals based on the season of bonspiels and varrying SFM values in equal bonspiels. Both the OCT and MCT are very good circuits. I have played events on both tours.

My point is that all teams should be automatically registered the minute they sign up for a provincial tour or WCT event. This could eliminate that problem. I know in other provinces like BC or Alberta they may run into the same issue.

Reid

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 159

I tend to agree with a couple of these posts. For starters, everybody should be eligible for points when you enter a bonspiel that meets the criteria for a CTRS eligible bonspiel, as Reid mentioned. Another poster mentioned only the top 10 teams should affect the mulitplier. Another great idea. The most important thing is make sure you have atleast one guy with a head band and goofy hair at each slam. There just aren't enough head bands on tour..

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If you count only the top10 teams, how do you factor in the different sizes of events? I think it makes a big difference if it's 16, 32 or bigger?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gerry
No money is being given out as far as I know, but I do know they will be handling out CTRS points at the event.

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Registered: Sep 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered


I agree with Chubb. Handing out more CTRS points at the pre-trials or trials would be like handing out Ryder Cup points AT the Ryder Cup.

B-Sav

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hack2Hack

As for the Ontario (Inflated) Tour.... I agree something needs to be done. There is no way that a spiel with 6 pretrial teams (Saville Shootout) should be worth less than an Ontario Tour spiel with a full line up of 32 non Olympic trial teams all holding minimal CTRS values. Something needs to change... maybe only take into account the top 10 teams in the spiel instead of the total field? Just some food for thought..

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OK Use a formula where you add up values for all teams, then divide by the number of teams. THAT would give you a strength of field value.

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Most of those Ontario tour events have purses too small to justify the flights and other travel expenses. This is why you don't have western teams in them. At least the western spiels have money to justify the cost.
The spiels are well run and really maximize the point values for each team. I mean, having a million qualifiers, and then points for teams losing each C final. Almost 20 teams earn points some weekends. Am I wrong? Please correct me if I am.
This is a great tour don't get me wrong, and it serves a purpose, but the teams on this tour haven't had a lot of success outside the province. Are any of those teams really ready for slam play? No. Because they don't play against the top teams every weekend. It's a bit of catch 22, sure you can qualify easier for the slams on the Ont Tour. But you don't have a real chance of winning anything once you get there. Sorry, but that's a fact.

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Registered: Sep 2002
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 2091

In Ontario, there are more qualifiers at several of the events, and while this had lead to getting a few more points, it has been the backbone of the success of the Tour. The goals in Ontario are to allow teams more opportunities to play, and thus we have more events starting up each year.

No more then 50% of teams in an event generally receive CTRS points, and the two that have so far were both out west. (Horizon and Brandon MB Lotteries). The reason a lot of teams get points is that there's a lot of teams in some Ontario events. In a 40 Team event, they qualified 16 teams. In 35 team event, they qualified 14 teams.

I can understand why Alberta is getting frustrated, having lost two major events in the last year, and a new event offering good opportunities for B teams could only draw 10 entries.

The teams in Ontario would do just fine in the Slams, I am at all the Slams, and I know these Ontario teams. I know they can compete as good as anyone else across the country.

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