Registered: Nov 2004
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Gerry:

Why have you decided to re-invent the wheel and screw up a perfect 32 team triple knockout draw.
Now with the potential of 4 games on Sunday you have totally disrespected the players input on this. As a front ender, or any player, we do not want to be faced with sweeping, let alone playing four games.
I think what you have done is BS, and the players should have voted on this draw. Otherwise given the opportunity to backout when recognizing what your draw is?

Respectfully yours

Tet

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He's right Gerry.

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Eleven qualifiers does seem a bit weird.

I've never played four games in a single day, if someone does end up doing this please post and let us know how it felt.

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quote:

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[i]
I've never played four games in a single day, if someone does end up doing please post and let us know how it felt. [/B]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered


I've done it before and it's hell.

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Wow

What event was did this happen in?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Guest


Wow

What event was did this happen in?

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Thanks for the comments Tet.

The issue of 4 games on Sunday and the draw format are separate issues.

A. Four games in a day is not ideal, though due to time constraints, every available ice time is being used, with 7 draws being played on both Friday and Saturday. The Thursday evening start times were set, and with expanding from 24 to 32 teams, and the popular women's event, it meant a four game day somewhere. The two teams who potentially could play 4 in a day will be the two in the final.

B. The standard 32 Team Triple is a good draw, though wouldn't have fit into the time-frame. It is more games then the current draw. Also, if you look at this draw, it is the fairest 32 Team Triple draw out there, where every team drops to the same level from A to B and B to C. If you lose Round 1 in B, you drop to Round 1 in C, etc. This draw was created by the World Curling Players' Association as a way to balance out the Triple Knockout format.

C. With the fairness of the Draw, it also allows teams to start on Friday and not have to play 4 in a day during the qualifying round.

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Played 4 games on Sunday last year in Stroud.

It's tough and tiring but not the end of the world.

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We played three twelve end games in a day using corn brooms and that was prior to "Fit to Curl". Do the math.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
Played 4 games on Sunday last year in Stroud.

It's tough and tiring but not the end of the world.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
We played three twelve end games in a day using corn brooms and that was prior to "Fit to Curl". Do the math.

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And that was uphill into the wind both ways ... Kids today have it so easy ..

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I do have to agree with Tet on this one. I was thinking about biting my tongue on this topic....but i just can't. This has nothing to do with the Whitby Cashspiel and the hard work Rob and his committee put into this event. This is strictly about the draw. This year has been brutal on the OCT with events having 14, 16 and now 11 qualifiers. What is wrong with the traditional 8 qualifiers? The more qualifiers, the more watered down the prize money. Having more than 8 qualifiers is great...if the purse is around $80,000. When we go to a spiel....take Whitby for example...we take the friday off work, pay the entry and fork out money for a hotel. This is not an issue. The issue is you barely double your money for qualifying in these spiels with more than 8 qualifiers. Ideally you want to work it so that you make 3-4 times your entry for qualifying....to cover costs AND make a little money in the end....not just break even. Organizers have to take a look at the maximum number of teams they can have where qualifiers more than double their entry. These spiels that welcome 40-50 and 14-16 qualifiers realistically should offer at least $18,000 for first.

As far as being the "fairest" draw out there...no one really complains about not dropping equally on each side of the draw. If it were a problem....then every spiel on the OCT/WCT would have 11 qualifiers....but they don't. As Tet said...why are we trying to re-invent the wheel?

Again, this is not a post against the Whitby cashspiel or Rob and his organizers....rather about the "weird" draws we have all seen and been a part of the year on tour.

Lastly....the Sun Life has changed it's draw as well. We are going with 1 A qualifier, 1 B qualifier and 14 C qualifiers. The C qualifier losers will get $900, round of 16 losers will get $1100, quarter final losers will get $1500, semi losers will get $1800, loser of the final will get $2000 and the winner will receive $2500! Sound fair??

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Great post, Wayne...it's now clear why your spiel's draw isn't posted yet due to the 14 C-brackets.

I don't have an issue with the "uneven" drops in the traditional 32 team triple...you play enough of them and they even out. Or, don't start 0-2 or 1-2 and it's not an issue. Completely agree with you on the $$ comment as well...if a spiel really feels the need to pay out more than 8 teams, then give the C-qualifier losers their entry (or a portion of it) back.

Brad Savage

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Is the Status-Quo really working for our sport?

All we need to do is look to Alberta and Saskatchewan, former powerhouses of depth that have a tough time filling their major events, and it's not the top teams who aren't signing up.

I'm willing to think outside the box and try things for the betterment of the sport and I understand that we all don't like change. This draw was created by Pierre Charette with that in mind.

How soon we forget, as little at 3-4 years ago, where the biggest complaints I heard from the top OCT teams in Ontario was how they had no chance of getting into the Elite events, the Slams, the Players Championship. Now a good season on the OCT puts you in contention.

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Things on this tour need to be placed into perspective. The event this upcoming weekend in Whitby my be running a format that most seem to view as unconventional. But it does take into consideration and address many of the former complaints raised by the competitive players in the province over the past few seasons.

Problem. There were complaints about needing more triples.
Solution. The organizers listened and made the event a triple.

Problem. Complaints that events should be seeded.
Solution. The event is seeded, unlike may other triples.

Problem. Getting the most for your money.
Solution. The event offers a much higher purse than many other spiels that have higher entry fees.

If you look at the big picture the event is doing all it can to get it right. There are more positives than negatives here.

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Gerry....I agree with you in respect to trying something for the betterment of the sport. It's great and it has to start somewhere....but you can't do it if the money just isn't there. I have no problem with the 12 teams they qualify at the Canada Cup Qualifier. You make the round of 16 and you are getting $4000. That is fair! Getting only $1800 is not.

The biggest complaints you did hear from the competitive OCT teams was that it was hard to crack into the Slams, but also they lack of money in our events. That still hasn't changed. What good is having a decent year on the OCT and working your way up the Order of Merit...qualifying for a Slam or the Player's Championship....but not having nearly enough money won to cover the cost to actually go!!! There has to be a medium here....the SFM points are raising....but so should the $$$.

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I have to completely DISAGREE with Wayne. For me and I think I'm speaking for many of the average teams out there; The more qualifiers at a spiel the greater the opportunity for average teams to earn some money and make the venture in the OCT a bearable one. If you always get the same teams winning by offering top prize money to the winners and limit the qualifiers to 8 I firmly believe a lot of teams would stop entering OCT events. What I like about the OCT is that you provide opportunity for the C to B level teams to earn some money. If you change it to reflect Wayne's view I think you will lose some events as teams would stop entering. The argument goes on I have more to say but I have the kids beside and its difficult to express concise thoughts.

Cheers
Dennis

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How are you making more money with more qualifiers? The math doesn't add up. Take a look at the average spiel....say Guelph for example. Entry is $500, hotel for 3 nights $600, you are already at $1100....qualifying was around $1100...so where are you making money? Imagine if they had more qualifiers like you suggest, qualifying money in the rund of 12,13,14, whatever would have been about $900. Is that worth it? That is where you start to lose teams not with the standard 8 qualifiers. You likely won't lose teams as there are a lot of different spiels each weekend on the OCT to choose from.

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Both previous entries have a valid point even though they are on opposite sides of the discussion.

I think that agreeing with a larger number of qualifying teams caters to the type of team that wants to play the better Ontario teams but will rarely, if ever, qualify for the money if there are only 8 qualifying teams. In this case, these teams will stop going to the events because it is too expensive, attendance therefore drops and the larger payout is not available because it is based on the event being full.

If you are the type of team that regulary makes it to the qualifying round then you want the fewer teams so the payouts are larger and you actually "make a profit".

Either way, the fact remains that the event needs to be full in order to get the full advertised payout. How long will the lower teams hang on before they say, we are not playing in these events and they go back to the other previously mentioned spiels because they get no money OR how long will the "upper" teams keep playing without a profit?

Who will quit first?

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I do have to aggree with one aspect of your argument, when you add hotel costs than that certainly puts a dent in the budget and on the winnings. our team enters speils and works around speils that do not require hotels stays. I'm arguing the point that more qualifiers gives the opportunity for more teams in B/C level to earn some qualifying money. Which in turn generates more enthusiams for participating in OCT events. Too continue work is interfering.

Dennis

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Really this should be a seperate thread, I hate to think the sponsors for events are reading some of this.

That aside, if you look at the OCT main site there is a mission statement. Essentially the development of grassroots curling in the province.

You could go the way Tuck suggests with payouts for losing C or have more qualifiers. Bottom line is OCT is about encouraging people to get out and play.

Speaking of getting out to play, I think I m going to get down to Whitby shortly and watch some of the action and enjoy a few beverages, I hear the bar is well stocked.

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I sort of agree with Dennis on this point. Unless your Howard, Middaugh and now maybe Matchett, nobody is out here to 'earn' a living. Curling shouldn't be about the 'money'. Not yet anyways. If you look at some of the spiels to date, IT IS the same teams qualifying, week in and week out...Matchett, Balsy, Corner, Frans, Prebble, Higgs. I don't doubt that possibly all six of these teams will make up the eleven qualifiers this weekend. Having 5 more qualifiers does allow an up an coming team to have a chance.

So, lets all head out to Whitby, and have a great time, enjoy some beverages and top notch curling.

Good curling to all!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Unregistered
We played three twelve end games in a day using corn brooms and that was prior to "Fit to Curl". Do the math.

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If anyone is free for the 5:00 game today, my team could really use a spare.

Mark

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wow, looking for a spare at this late date? More notice and might have been able to help.

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